How Welcoming is Your School? A Frank Discussion About Recruiting and Retaining People of Color

Series 4 Leaders Coaching Leaders Podcast

[00:00:00.41] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.58] TANYA GHANS: Hi, Peter. Welcome back to this another edition of Leaders Coaching Leaders. Today we have two really great guests. One, Dr. Howard Field who is the assistant superintendent of human resources along with many other hats that he wears all focused on heavily in equity and just education improvement.

[00:00:44.18] And then we also have Dr. Darrell Diggs who is currently the assistant director of equity. They are both out of the Missouri St. Louis area and again, doing really great work specifically on recruitment and retention for leaders and staff of color in general. But again, I think they have their hands on a lot of really great initiatives for education.

[00:01:10.87] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. Yeah, they do. Because I have to admit the more we talked and the more we were talking about some of the organizations, the Black Male Educators of Saint Louis, and then they're also talking about EduOpenings, which we get into in the podcast.

[00:01:27.26] But yeah, they are-- when you talk about what are you doing for the profession, these are two people that are trying to do and succeeding of doing a lot for the profession. And I think that listeners are going to get a great deal out of the conversation.

[00:01:44.06] And I think what's important here-- and this is something Tanya that I actually-- I know Mike Soules is the president of Corwin. He is going to a guest on the podcast as well. But he and I were talking a couple of weeks ago through a Zoom meeting, and one of the things that I appreciate very, very much about Corwin, and I'm not just saying it because it's my publisher, there has always been a stance when it comes to equity and race. In fact, my very first book with Corwin is on [INAUDIBLE] LGBT.

[00:02:16.01] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:02:16.85] PETER DEWITT: And I remember I was very unknown. And Mike actually had a authors party where there are people in there like Michael [? Foland ?] and everybody else. And he wanted to talk about one book, and he talked about mine, and that was 11 years ago.

[00:02:31.32] So to me, there's always been this stance, and I feel like today's conversation is that. If I was going to say Tanya, you know what? If I have one conversation that I can say is the epitome of what I wanted out of this whole discussion about equity and race, especially with Corwin's stance on equity and race, this would be it.

[00:02:55.87] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, you said that beautifully. I'm not sure that there's much I can add to it except that listeners a lot of times we do hear the phrase, let's have an honest conversation about race. And I do believe there are lots of ways to do that. And what I know for sure is that what you're going to hear now is one of them. So I'm very excited for you all to hear what Dr. Fields and Dr. Diggs have to say at this really important moment, I think, for our country. So--

[00:03:25.69] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and I want to say listen and listen really with an open heart when you're listening.

[00:03:32.05] TANYA GHANS: Agreed. All right, Peter, I'll see you on the other end.

[00:03:34.78] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:03:39.03] PETER DEWITT: Dr. Diggs and Dr. Howard Fields, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. How are you both doing?

[00:03:45.59] DARRYL DIGGS: We're doing fantastic. Thank you for having us.

[00:03:48.82] HOWARD FIELDS: Yes, Peter. Thank you for having us. It's a tremendous honor to be here in this space to have conversation with you.

[00:03:55.12] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, no, I'm just excited about everything that I hope we can get to within this podcast, but we also know that we can just do another episode if that doesn't work. So let's just start it off. Currently, one of the things that is happening around the nation is this whole idea of teacher shortage.

[00:04:13.89] And something that you both have focused on for quite a long time is finding and retaining leaders of color. So how do you-- what brought you to focusing on that together in the first place? And what does that look like? Like what are some of the strategies that you're engaging in that are going to help find and retain leaders of color? So Daryl, why don't we start with you?

[00:04:41.58] DARRYL DIGGS: I appreciate that. And again, thank you for this opportunity and platform. So Howard and I we were able to land and find one another through a leadership experience. And again, off into the woods through our journey. And through that experience of learning these different leadership initiatives, it's very rare that there will be two Black male educators that do not know one another.

[00:05:05.74] And so within that, we were able to develop these bonds where we were very passionate about trying to combat and then also stamp out inequities that we saw in our own educational spaces. So for example, I worked in a space, this was several years ago to where I started to question whether the elementary students would have the opportunity to have an experience from a diverse background as far as their teacher, their educator, maybe their leader in the education space before they graduated from a K-12 experience?

[00:05:38.52] And in that opportunity be trying to analyze the metrics of that, the result was 0. Like there was an opportunity for kids to just not have the experience that mimicked either their community or the world that they would be growing up in. Myself, I have two young boys, and so when I think about the world for them, I'm working on that for them right now.

[00:06:01.39] So if I'm very passionate, which I am, about this work, creating diverse experiences, trying to find and retain but then also champion the field of education, I must do that for not only my children but also for those that will come behind me.

[00:06:17.79] HOWARD FIELDS: Yeah, I second a lot of what brother Diggs just alluded to. I think both of us are avid sports fans, and so we hear a thing or two about the recent trend of All Stars or great players wanting to go and play with other folks. And we have frequently heard in education that A players don't necessarily want to play for C coaches, and so on and so forth.

[00:06:43.65] While we certainly don't shy away from a skill set that we have, which is to build community and to move communities forward for the betterment of our students and our staff, we want to be in spaces where we are supported and also in spaces where we know the mission and we're moving forward. I think generally speaking in a lot of our conversations with educators of color as well as leaders of color, it's the same narrative.

[00:07:09.33] Many of us believe that we have a skill set to build relationships. The data and the research is there to support how having educators of color, in this case, Black educators, what it does to the school in terms of our students and their ability to learn and retain information, but also to go on and do some magnificent things. And so what we have found is getting educators of color into the field of education is one thing, but how do you retain them?

[00:07:36.55] And what we found is that retention starts with the conversation and the experiences that people are there. All of our educators are essentially publicists not just of the organization that we work for, but for the field. And so similar to anybody who's done some PR or work around customer service, when you have really good experiences, you are less likely to communicate those amazing experiences.

[00:08:00.39] But I'll tell you what, if you have a terrible experience, we are almost with pinpoint accuracy 90% to 100% going to communicate to others how terrible this experience is. And I think unfortunately for some educators of color again, for Black educators specifically based off of our conversations with our various groups, there have been a number of challenges in the field that has contributed to this educator shortage in the workforce.

[00:08:27.63] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, and thank you for that. I also moderate a web show for education we call The Seat at the Table where we're often talking about race and equity. And I remember having Dr. Barron Davison, who's a superintendent in South Carolina, and we talked about retaining educators of color.

[00:08:48.75] How has the recent, and I would say recent because of the fact that it's much more vocal, and we see it much more in our face than ever before, you've got states that are now banning conversations about equity and race. How has that impacted the fact that-- trying to get educators of color and leaders of color into schools? How has that impacted the whole idea of retention? And even just recruiting people to come into to a system that seemingly wants to discriminate against them?

[00:09:27.27] HOWARD FIELDS: I think I'll start off. As a past principal in a school where regardless of the data point, we had evidence to support that not only students were learning, but there was evidence to support that they were learning at a high level.

[00:09:42.63] And one of the things that I found is that we have to teach educators or treat educators like the professionals that they are Steve Jobs said it the best, "We don't hire great people and-- smart people rather and tell them what to do. We hire smart people and let them tell us what to do."

[00:09:58.09] And so as a principal at the time, what we did was we were very clear on the mission. We were very clear on the destination, and we were able to have various conversations throughout. But they received autonomy to really do this great work called teaching and learning, right? We like to say that education is a science, but it's also an art. And when you see that science and art working together, it is a magnificent sight.

[00:10:25.98] And so you mean to tell me, I want to recruit people into my space, tell them to be who they are, be authentic, bring all of their schema and things that they've learned and backgrounds as we are moving forward. But we then throw a curveball and say, as it relates to how potentially your ancestors navigated to this country, or as it relates to some of the experiences you've had that we know on the basis of race, we don't want to have those conversations.

[00:10:57.61] I think that's having impact on what we're deeming as the educator shortage. Because again, we have a pleasure of sitting here with you Peter, and we get a chance to speak freely about our experiences. Could you imagine in the preamble we said, OK, you all can speak, but you can't talk about your experiences in education, you can't talk about your experiences as Black men, and you can't talk about anything that's not shedding great light on education. Now let's have a conversation.

[00:11:28.20] Peter, I would be silent because all of my experiences are steeped in one of those experiences, me being a Black male, being an educator, and/or me having a vocal point and a perspective for some of the things that are going on. And so I think it's not only a threat against educators, but it's also a threat on our democracy. And I'm interested in hearing what brother Diggs would add to that.

[00:11:52.26] DARRYL DIGGS: Yeah. To add to that point, what we see right now across education, what we're experiencing in this moment across education is what's created by design. So what we see right now and also our experiencing with shortages, bans across the country, and also major microaggressions and bias that are layered all over the place, we are seeing that now because the system was built to be this at this present moment.

[00:12:27.37] So again to piggyback off of Dr. Fields and his thoughts, while education is a science and an art, there's a deep sense of, hey, am I able to come into a space and bestow upon young people the fruit of education? But I can't lean in with my limited experience. I can't be authentic, right?

[00:12:50.04] So if you can't do those two things, then what is a curriculum? A curriculum is just a pile of words that you can't convey the passion of its importance. And if we can't convey the passion of its importance, articulate the vision, and then also the purpose of it all, then what are we really teaching?

[00:13:09.00] PETER DEWITT: So about a month and a half ago, I was actually running a workshop in San Antonio, Texas for a regional network. There are 300 people in the room, and I use Mentimeter which is an online engagement tool which is also anonymous, and that's important part to the story.

[00:13:25.65] But we were doing a realm of concern, a realm of influence activity where you were talking about your concerns, and then you would move it down to so what do you have influence over? And I'll tell you it was a powerful day because in the room we had about 35 people from Uvalde. In fact, Rob Elementary School was there, the principal was there.

[00:13:43.08] And they were talking about student safety, parent communication. When you see that, it's obviously very powerful to see them engaging in that. But then I asked could you go up to, now, I want you to get on Mentimeter and talk about your realm of concern, what are the things you're concerned about?

[00:14:00.01] And because it's anonymous, it was easier for people to say this, but there were numerous people that said we live in a state where we're supposed to talk about student engagement, but we can't even talk about equity and race. So how fair of a job are we really going to be able to do? And that's just very-- I don't know what the words are for it to be honest with you.

[00:14:23.56] Not only is it racist and discriminatory, it's also very frustrating to be in this position in 2022 and not to be able to have open conversations. Because quite honestly, we're the seat at the table because we talk about race and equity so much. I have learned a great deal over the past 2 and 1/2 years that I have been moderating the show, and I'm a guy that focuses on inclusion and everything else.

[00:14:45.95] One of the things that-- one of the blogs you wrote there-- you both have really great websites, by the way, that people need to be able to go to. So Howard Field you have a website with videos, and you have blogs that you've written, and I'm going to get to one of those in just a minute.

[00:15:00.61] And Darrell Diggs, you also have a website with the same thing. You have blogs. And one of your blogs that I read recently was called "The Fire Within" and it was about leadership. I think this is a really important time-- and I'm getting older. So I'm 52 years old. I feel like I've been talking about an important time for quite a long time.

[00:15:20.78] But this is a really important time for people to actually stand up and be leaders. And sometimes leadership means standing up against the grain and saying things against what other people might want. What would you give as advice and insight to people when it comes to the whole idea of "The Fire Within" and standing up to be a leader during these times? What advice do you have for leaders in a position very much like you that are not saying anything, or they want to say something but they're not sure what to say?

[00:15:55.66] DARRYL DIGGS: Well, thank you for that. And so just to go back for just a moment, I wrote that particular blog "Fire Within" because I was in a transition period. I was moving from the principal-ship into another role. And what I wanted to just again, make clear and put my thoughts and spirit in the space is that I wanted to communicate to leaders and also to myself that it's OK to be you, number one. And it's OK for all of us, leaders, teachers wherever you are in the world and also in the space, to understand that you can do hard things.

[00:16:33.68] I believe it's safe to say that all of us were experiencing a moment almost all at the same time where we all had to make a decision to either do something incredibly hard or just watch it unfold in front of us, which is the pandemic, COVID-19, virtual learning, what have you.

[00:16:51.17] Now, with that said, what I would impart onto leaders across the space is this, at some point, you have to get off the dance floor and jump on stage to really see what's going on around you. So for example, you really won't know what's happening in your community if you're just sitting in your office, or sitting in the lunch line.

[00:17:13.07] You really have to take a step back see what everybody's needs may be. And then after you're able to really get a good understanding of what's happening in the environment, then you're like, OK, now what decisions do we need to make that might be uncomfortable but also necessary for all of us to reach our goals, mission, and vision?

[00:17:31.19] I often talk about, which I've mentioned in the blog, about the horizon. As we look out over to the horizon, we know that the light is there. We know that the fruit or the promised land happens to be there. But between here and there, there's going to be some hills, some valleys. There might be some snakes here and there.

[00:17:51.69] But understand that to get from here to there, to the horizon, we must be authentic. Don't be afraid to use your voice. And it's OK to ask for forgiveness. And also expect it to not be given back to you in return. Very often human nature we hold on to, well, they did this to me, and they were so negative. But at the end of the day, if you're doing the right thing for kids, if you're always having your eye on the horizon or the promised land, then you can't go wrong.

[00:18:27.65] And so that's what the article speaks about. It also speaks about, hey, you know what? The outcome isn't what I expected, all of us didn't expect but we also need to put the next foot forward and also the one right after that.

[00:18:44.83] PETER DEWITT: I think that's excellent advice. So many of us jump into leadership and we don't have a lot of experience, right? We may have done internships and those kind of things. I mean, I went from teaching a high-poverty city school to being a principal in a very rural school, but I had no experience. And that whole idea like being willing to make mistakes and those kind of things, I think you're just really important examples for everybody to hear.

[00:19:10.45] I often go back on some advice I got from some retired teachers. When my principal of-- had been in the district for about 50 years said to me, Peter, I think you should skip the master's in Ed psych and go back and get your master's in administration. I said, I am not-- I'm never going to be a principal. And the two retired teachers I talked to actually said, but what if you could be the principal you want to be not the one you think you have to be?

[00:19:35.14] And I think that's coincides with what you're saying as well. Howard, you were you wrote a blog too that I wanted to-- I mean, you both have written many blogs, but you wrote one about everything to do with race. And it was after the massacre in Buffalo. Why is it that people don't seem to see the connection between what happened there and the fact that banning conversations about equity and race is not going to get us any further ahead?

[00:20:05.70] HOWARD FIELDS: Well, Peter, that's a conversation we can certainly take. It could be a sequence in itself of multiple podcasts, but I'll be very concise in this regard. Race-- we have socialized race to be almost a taboo subject. We want to say things outside of race, although, from a school setting, when you're talking about students who are not doing well, you do go to race.

[00:20:33.21] And so as an educator, as a Black male, I'm just quite frankly sick and tired of being at the table, having conversations, and when we talk about those students who are not doing well, when we're talking about those students who have this notion of learning loss, when we talk about this notion of educators who are leaving the field, et cetera, et cetera, they look like me. They have lineage that goes back to Africa like myself.

[00:21:02.07] And as you can imagine, that on a constant basis, that's going to have an impact on your thoughts, your beliefs and what you're doing. We have to have certain conversations, and we have to acknowledge it. And when we remove that as part of the conversation, it does feel empty, and it does send a loud clear message that you cannot show up as your organic or authentic self.

[00:21:28.74] I think these are some of the dynamics that we are looking at. I certainly believe based on my experience is for the overwhelming majority, every organization is perfectly set up to receive the results that they receive. And when you talk about the day-to-day interactions, when you're talking about what gets measured gets done, it's a situation where a lot of times it's not continuous growth happening.

[00:21:56.79] It's almost a situation where those students who assimilate and acquiesce into the way that we do things, are those who get an opportunity and do well. And those that continue to want to liberate themselves in other regards, they are the ones who struggle quite frankly.

[00:22:15.63] And when I say struggle, that's an asterisk beside it because when we're talking about the great things the students do, and how they do well in school, it's been my experience is that all students have more gifts than challenges. It's just those students who sound and look like me and Darrell, for instance, our challenges are the ones that are pushed out there much more than our gifts.

[00:22:38.44] And I think those are conversations that we absolutely must have in order to move forward. A lot of-- there was something on social media the other day or not long ago that was saying, when did you have your first teacher of color or a Black educator?

[00:22:53.52] I'll take it another step further. When were you consciously made aware of the way that our country was created and the role that people of color, need that be Black, need that be Native Americans, the role that they played and the creation of this country?

[00:23:10.44] I think those are pieces that unfortunately they continue to get swept under the rug. Another saying is, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And too often when we look at legislators branches, and when we look at the ones that are making decisions, rather that be politicians, board members, they're the same in a lot of regards.

[00:23:31.77] Most of the time, the overwhelming majority either don't look like myself and Darrell, or they're put in a position where some of their successes are based on acquiescing or assimilating in these same structures. And I think that's going to continue to have an impact on our students, and it's going to continue to say, although we want student voice and choice, although we want students to come as they are, there is a line in the sand.

[00:23:58.74] And frequently enough, if you're from a particular community, if you don't have x amount of wealth, if you have x amount of disabilities, or if you have a particular sexual orientation, that line is very clear, and you're essentially on the outside looking in. That's the harsh reality of the matter.

[00:24:16.47] PETER DEWITT: It is definitely the harsh reality. And one of the things that you said reminded me of what Baron Davis actually said to me when on a seat at the table where he was talking about it's not just retaining leaders of color and retaining educators of color. It's also about retaining counselors and school psychologists of color because when you think about that deficit mindset, the reality is you have a lot of school psychologists or counselors that might be white.

[00:24:42.10] And if they don't understand young Black males or young Black females, they do have a deficit mindset. And so looking at school counselors and school psychologists is also really important. Also what you said and I think what people need to really understand is there's a great book called Know Your Price by Andre Perry.

[00:25:02.41] And Andre was somebody who was actually a guest on A Seat at the Table once too. And in his book he talks about the fact that billions of dollars less are spent on schools that have a high majority of Black and Brown students. And I think people don't seem to want to talk about that, and I think it's something that we need to be able to talk about.

[00:25:23.83] And that funding discussion has been around for a long time. Jonathan Kozol talked about that in the 1990s in Savage Inequalities as well. So I'd like to talk a little bit about a couple of the organizations that you both are a part of. So you're both a part of Black Male Educators of Saint Louis. Talk to us a little bit about where that came from and the great work that you're doing there as well.

[00:25:48.08] DARRYL DIGGS: Thank you for that. So BMESTL, Black Male Educators from Saint Louis. It was started from a conversation that Dr. Fields and I had off on the side just wanting to create community and just bringing Black male educators together. And so when we put out the little flyer, we were going to meet at a local restaurant here in Saint Louis. And immediately on the first one, again, it was like a happy hour situation, about 30 Black male educators showed up.

[00:26:15.67] And the greatest compliment from that first event was one of our older gentlemen, I think he was recently retired, he said, gentlemen, this is what I needed. There needs to be more of this. We need to make sure that we're also building community to where there's not many of us leaving because there's this retention piece too. So if we're able to connect with one another, build community, there may be a chance where there's going to be less Black males leave the field of education.

[00:26:48.35] And so one social group, then it turned into two, turned into three, and then we just had a series of them once a month. And they started growing in kind. And so then from there, Dr. Fields and I, we had another idea about like, hey, what if we were to have a convening of just thoughts and ideas from leaders from all across the Saint Louis area?

[00:27:08.44] And so that birthed the State of Black Educator Symposium. And we feel phenomenally blessed to be going into our fourth iteration of SBE. It'll be called SBE23, State of Black educator Symposium for 2023. And so what's awesome about that is, again, the greatest compliment for that was, hey, this feels like a family reunion.

[00:27:30.64] And it's just us bringing people together to have conversation that's impactful about education, how to best support one another, how to support Black educators, educators of color, kids of color, like what does that look like? But also let's move away from theory and get to practice. Let's also go from practice and get to real action. And that's something that Howard and I pride ourselves on. We're authentic. We try to be responsive to the needs of our side of the state and just create events that mean something.

[00:28:07.11] PETER DEWITT: So what are those strategies? Let's get there. Let's talk about the practical strategies. What are some practical ways to start recruiting and retaining educators and leaders of color? What do you focus on?

[00:28:21.00] HOWARD FIELDS: Well, I think for starters recruitment starts with retention. Have conversations with your current staff of color as it relates to real conversations. And when I say real conversations, I am essentially referring to what are some of those things that we do well? What are some of those challenges?

[00:28:40.74] I think this is more so than an opportunity for you to engage with your staff in color, this is also an assessment of your culture. Because if you're asking these difficult questions and if people are being quiet and not speaking up, I think that's a testament to the culture that you've established, and people are not safe.

[00:28:58.95] In order to teach school, we have to keep school. And too often what that means from an educator standpoint is we have to have a situation where you're not going to be reprimanded for providing organic, real conversations. I think that's going to be important. I think more recently you have a lot of organization hiring staff of color, but they're hiring them at the introductory level.

[00:29:20.32] And I think, while that's OK if myself Peter and Darrell if we're saying we want to do great things and we want to make our organization better for our staff members who identify as women. Then if we don't have any staff members who are in the boardroom making conversations and who also feel comfortable enough to provide their organic real conversations, then what are we really doing? I think we first have to establish our culture.

[00:29:46.98] And we also have to swallow some difficult pills in a sense that sometimes we're not recruiting people into a healthy organization. We are trying to recruit people into the most toxic, difficult space that you're going to be in. I tell people all the time, what's the benefit in making $20,000 $30,000 $40,000 more when we're just going to have to turn around and spend it on therapy because in order for you to even maintain and stay in a space where you're functional, you're going to be quite lonely in some of these areas.

[00:30:18.40] And so one of the things that Dale and I have been able to do is we created the flip job fair dynamic. And instead of you going in, having conversations with all of these different organizations who are trying to recruit you, you get a chance to be at a table and they come to you.

[00:30:35.55] And one of the questions we try to empower people to have is those same individuals who share the same social identity as myself, what criticisms or critical pieces of feedback will they say about your organization? From what we've been told, that's one of the most empowering questions you can ask because it forces you as the organization to see one, if you have an inclusive environment where people have provided you with that feedback?

[00:30:57.06] And two, are you comfortable enough and confident enough where you can articulate the areas that are still areas of improvement for you? I'm saying all of that to say, people have options and people know that they want to feel fulfilled in this work, and they want to do some great things for kids.

[00:31:13.86] I will still say with the exception of me working at the airport for Northwest Airlines, who's no longer in business, I would say education is the best field I've ever worked in, and there's nothing like going into a classroom making a difference, engaging with individuals. There is nothing like it. At the same time, is it worth it to make a difference for others at the expense of your future as an individual? That's a harsh question that you have to ask yourself.

[00:31:42.78] PETER DEWITT: I like all of those. Darryl, I'm going to end with you as we start to wrap it up. What are some and maybe it's an unfair way of asking. But if I said, what are two things that you would suggest to listeners as far as retention and also recruiting, what would it be? What do you find as you're like-- because you just went out of the principal role, now you're in the director of equity. And so what are those two things that you would say, we do this, and it works really well?

[00:32:15.86] DARRYL DIGGS: Far too often we're sitting in spaces to where we have gotten comfortable with this is how we've always done things, or we've never done it that way. It's OK to start doing it like something else. It's OK to book convention and be innovative.

[00:32:34.46] So just those two pieces. One, get off the dance floor, see what's going on, ask the deep questions. And then number two, let's not sit in our bathwater. Let's change. Let's grow. Let's be great.

[00:32:47.54] PETER DEWITT: You know it remains-- a trend that I see quite often these days is that of empathy interviews asking students, what are the barriers to learning? What are the things that work for you in the classroom? And it seems like we need to be able to do the same thing with the adults. What are the barriers to you doing your job? What are the successes? What are the things that we do well.

[00:33:07.73] And much to what you were saying Howard earlier, not only do we have to be willing to ask the questions, but we have to be willing to listen to the answers as well. And sometimes the answers we get are going to be painful. We're not going to enjoy them. But that's what the hard truth will do, and that's what gets us to change. So as we end, Dr. Darrell Diggs, where can people find you?

[00:33:30.65] DARRYL DIGGS: So I could be found on my website, achievementforall.com. I'm also very active on Twitter, achievement4all, the number 4. And we also run a small startup called EduOpenings. You can find that on App Store, Google Play, as well as through Android.

[00:33:49.58] PETER DEWITT: And before I get to Dr. Howard Fields, Daryl, just talk to me a little bit about the EduOpenings, what is that?

[00:33:56.09] DARRYL DIGGS: So EduOpenings is as a start up between Dr. Fields and I. We were able to create a space in the midst of COVID to really help individuals find employment, find professional development, and then also for hiring parties to become recruiters.

[00:34:11.27] And so it's on a website. It's also on a mobile device because what we have found is that there are so many people with devices now, cell phones, to where why not take out your cell phone, look at positions that are available, apply, give your first impression, connect with one another.

[00:34:27.30] And this gives us a leg up on trying to fill those vacancies all across our space, whether it's support staff, teachers, admin, what have you. So we launched that in November last year. We're coming up on a year. And what's amazing about it is that it is extremely diverse. And once you pull the metrics, we have demographics all over. Individuals trying to find and also land positions, so it is wildly successful.

[00:34:53.54] PETER DEWITT: That's awesome. And Dr. Howard FIELDS, where can people find you?

[00:34:59.87] HOWARD FIELDS: I can be found on social media platforms, Twitter, Instagram, on LinkedIn. I also have to Daryl's point, a website as well, drhowardfields.com. And so just reach out. I would love to continue to connect with people across the country. If you are certainly interested in continuing to learn and grow, we encourage you to check out the third-- I'm sorry-- the fourth iteration of the State of Black Educator Symposium. More information can be on SBE23.com. Again, SBE23.com.

[00:35:35.45] And as Daryl already pointed out, nationwide, we do have EduOpenings which is a mobile app that you can download or go to the website EduOpenings.com. And so Peter we really appreciate you leveraging your platform to have these real discussions to highlight individuals who are doing some work. I had a chance to listen to some of the other podcasts and just fantastic individuals who are doing the work. And so kudos to you and the work that you do. We truly appreciate it.

[00:36:01.88] PETER DEWITT: Well it's a partnership with Tanya Ghans for sure. But Daryl, Howard, thank you so much for being on Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. But more importantly, thank you for the work that you're doing because it's very, very important now more than ever.

[00:36:16.00] DARRYL DIGGS: Thank you.

[00:36:16.53] HOWARD FIELDS: Thank you.

[00:36:21.01] PETER DEWITT: I have to admit a couple of years ago, I would have told you that I was really good at talking about race. I wrote about inclusion. Even at the intro I talked about the book on safeguarding LGBT students, which was my doctoral dissertation as well.

[00:36:40.13] But in one of my first conversations on A Seat at the Table for [? Ed Week, ?] I talked with Zoraida Hammond, also an important author. And within the first 2 and 1/2 minutes, I realized I wasn't good at talking about equity. And I will tell you that that conversation just sent me in a new trajectory as far as like I want to really-- I want to have these conversations. And I want to provide a space to have the conversations, but I also want to do something after the conversations.

[00:37:13.53] And I think today was a perfect example of just engaging in a really open and honest conversation. And Darrell and Howard certainly just brought so much to the table from both their experiences growing up and the work they're doing and the leadership they're inspiring, but also even with EduOpenings and talking about the Black Male Educators of St Louis. I think they said they were coming up on their fourth conference around that.

[00:37:43.25] I mean, they were just-- to me it was an amazing conversation. And I will say I'm better at these conversations because of that moment I had with Zoraida Hammond 2 and 1/2 years ago. And I think that that's what I was trying to get to when I was talking to Howard.

[00:37:59.87] About not only should you engage in empathy interviews where you're talking about what's working, what's not working, not only does it need to take some risk to be able to engage in those conversations, you have to be willing to hear what you're about to hear when you ask those questions too and do something about it. And I think that these two guys definitely just brought a lot of that today.

[00:38:22.64] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. I mean, thank you for even just your vulnerability upfront and at the top of this about saying you thought you knew how to talk about race and then you spoke to someone, and you realized there was so much more to learn. I think discussions like these allow people to be vulnerable.

[00:38:39.50] This is part of how you make a safe space that people can't say the things you've said, or say some of the things that they shared, you don't get to root causes. And that's such an issue. I think for again for our country today, this polarization, this people just not being able to speak honestly and authentically about where they stand right now.

[00:39:02.51] And that's in different positions in other people. And so yes, I think this conversation was fantastic in that. It was inspirational. And then it's also like these two are almost giants in the field. They also have a mobile app--

[00:39:18.58] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, I know.

[00:39:19.44] TANYA GHANS: --to make sure that they can make it practical for people to get access to folks of color who are looking for jobs. And they've created some really hands-on like, OK, this is a real thing, but we're also going to move your-- they get the-- again, people say the adaptive and the technical, but that adaptive piece is really, really hard, and they were so good at talking about that because that's probably 80% of so many problems, right? It's the bliss just where your mind is at.

[00:39:52.66] PETER DEWITT: I just kept thinking, I don't even-- I don't know how to make a mobile app. Like how do you-- that just seems so that seems so hard. But now, I mean, that's what I'm saying is that I feel like these are the conversations that are overall just take you on so many different levels, and they just bring about so many emotions.

[00:40:11.99] And at one point we're talking about a very deep, deep discussion about equity and race, which we know is being banned in places around the country or around the world. And on the other side, I'm like, man, you created an app.

[00:40:27.13] TANYA GHANS: Like you have a whole infrastructure and ecosystem going on to make this stuff operational, which is fantastic. So what I love about these conversations, even though it can be frustrating to only have the 25 minutes, I do think hopefully we wet people's whistle enough and we really expose them to folks that they can go deeper with on their own time.

[00:40:48.59] And I think all of our guests are those people, and these two are no exception to that. Go dig into Howard Field's and Dr. Diggs' work. And I do hope to see Corwin underneath their names.

[00:41:02.70] [LAUGHTER]

[00:41:03.64] PETER DEWITT: Oh, yeah.

[00:41:04.48] TANYA GHANS: Not too near future but we'll see.

[00:41:06.61] PETER DEWITT: People didn't hear me well. After the interview ended, they didn't hear me try to like--

[00:41:11.98] [LAUGHTER]

[00:41:12.88] I [INAUDIBLE]

[00:41:14.20] TANYA GHANS: You're always awesome at that. Well, Peter, another fantastic conversation. I feel inspired to go rejuvenated to go finish off the rest of my day.

[00:41:24.73] PETER DEWITT: Thank you very much, Tanya. You're a great partner in this, and that was just-- yeah that was a fantastic conversation. So thank you to everybody that listened and take action after you leave here today.

[00:41:37.93] TANYA GHANS: Sounds good. See you next time Peter.

[00:41:39.94] PETER DEWITT: All right. See you, Tanya.

[00:41:41.20] TANYA GHANS: Bye-bye.

[00:41:41.98] [AUDIO LOGO]