Why Educational Strategies and Student Outcomes are Not in Sync

Series 6 Leaders Coaching Leaders

[00:00:00.68] SPEAKER: Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host Peter Dewitt. This podcast is from education leaders for education leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning, not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.55] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya.

[00:00:20.75] TANYA GHANS: Hey, Peter.

[00:00:22.01] PETER DEWITT: How are you?

[00:00:23.57] TANYA GHANS: I'm good. We're back.

[00:00:25.13] PETER DEWITT: We are back. And you know what? We have a conversation with somebody today that I think there are people that won't know the name and other people that will.

[00:00:35.99] TANYA GHANS: Yeah.

[00:00:37.13] PETER DEWITT: His name is Lyle Kirtman. So I'm going to start by that, and he's been in leadership development consultant for more than 30 years. But he's worked in not just education but other sectors as well. And one of the reasons why I wanted him on the podcast is because Michael Fullan emailed me and said, hey, Peter, I want to make an introduction to somebody that I know and respect.

[00:01:01.25] And when Michael Fullan does that, that's pretty huge. So Lyle and I ended up talking. And at first, I'll tell you the conversation was a little tricky at the beginning. And Lyle would agree to that, too. We kind of push back on each other a little bit, and then within about 10 or 15 minutes of the conversation, I was just really engaged with what he was-- with what he was saying, and he has-- I'll say it in the podcast people hear me.

[00:01:29.70] When we hear the word blunt, that doesn't always have positive connotations, but in this case, I believe that Lyle does it in a very respectful and empathetic way, and it allows him to have some deeper conversations with people around things like how we can use data and evidence. And I say those separately because I asked him about the difference between that in the podcast, but he had written a guest blog for me because I ultimately asked him to write a guest blog.

[00:02:03.36] So he co-authored it with Sybil Knight-Burney, and it's called Outcomes are not in Sync. What you need to know-- and the first sentence is the fact that educational strategies are not aligned to student results is the core unspoken conversation that is missing in education. And that was the first sentence. So that's what we're talking about.

[00:02:24.18] TANYA GHANS: He is definitely blunt or candid, but I think one of the reasons that his bluntness ultimately goes down well and, hopefully, does go down well is that it's not born out of a desire to somehow degrade or be rude to the other person. It's out of the passion for the work and the urgency for change so that our system works better for our kids. And I think that comes across pretty quickly.

[00:02:52.95] And what I sincerely hope of the many things that he said that I think is going to just be one of those-- this is one of those conversations where a lots of things might stick with the listener, but that leaders who are listening, leaders on any level of the work, teacher leaders, teachers who are listening that you really go back to your space. You look at the big picture, and you really, really think about what do I want to prioritize. And by any means necessary, I am going to push the other stuff out of the way and keep it in its proper place.

[00:03:29.73] And I think listening to Lyle-- and I think many people want to do that, but it can just get so hard when you're in the middle of it. And he talks about why it gets hard. But I think Lyle Kirtman might be the kind of person who could really inspire people to take another go at getting focused, which is a word that comes up a lot.

[00:03:50.68] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. So I'm hoping people really enjoy this conversation because I do. And, you know, I've only spoken to him three or four times, but I enjoy his level of depth and with the common sense that he uses. I enjoy that very much. I find him very engaging. So I hope listeners do as well.

[00:04:15.45] TANYA GHANS: OK. Enjoy this one, listeners. Again, we really thank you. You're going to, and we'd love to hear from you after this one is over. Peter, I will see you on the other side.

[00:04:26.07] PETER DEWITT: Sounds good. Lyle Kirtman welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. It's good to have you on.

[00:04:36.32] LYLE KIRTMAN: Oh, it's wonderful to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

[00:04:39.11] PETER DEWITT: You know, it's not too often that Michael Fullan will contact me through email. I mean, he's written guest blogs for me, and he's been a hero of mine for many years. But he contacted me and said, I'd like to make an introduction to you, and I was like, OK, this doesn't happen too often for Michael make an introduction, and then we ended up talking for a while, and you wrote a great guest blog for me for finding common ground with Sibyl Knight-Burney, which I have to admit did really, really well. It was called Emotional Strategy-- oh, Education Strategies and Students' Outcomes are not in Sync; What You Need to Know.

[00:05:17.28] And one of the things that you said very first sentence; "The fact that educational strategies are not aligned to student results is the core unspoken conversation that is missing in education." So before we get there, for people that don't know Lyle Kirtman, could you talk a little bit about yourself? Give us your background.

[00:05:36.70] LYLE KIRTMAN: OK. No, it's exciting. I can't wait to get into the real conversation, the unspoken one. Yeah, I've been doing leadership management consulting for over 30 years. I've worked with about 400 school districts, probably more than that now. So I actually go in the districts, not as much today because it's virtual. I virtually go in. And I work with school boards sometimes, but superintendents, principals, administrators. And now over the last few years, doing-- I have 10 leadership development groups for teachers.

[00:06:11.55] So I do it at all levels. And Michael and I wrote a book about taking his coherence model and taking my work on leadership and connecting the two. So we did that how do you do coherence, but how do leaders what are their competencies and the skills to do that? So that's the work I do. I also have worked in other sectors. I've worked in the business world and in higher education, even military. I've done every different area.

[00:06:42.03] I did coach our state superintendent or commissioner in Massachusetts for five years when Massachusetts went from 16th to number one, which we can talk about what does that even mean. So I did do that at a state, and I've also worked at the federal level. So I know all parts of the system. So I try to bring it all together but focus on what leaders, actually.

[00:07:05.01] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. And you-- I mean, you do. You have such a rich background, and that came through in our conversation, but also with the blog as well. And so let's talk about the unspoken conversation that's missing in education. What did you mean by the fact that educational strategies are not aligned to student results? Like, where does that come from?

[00:07:27.28] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yeah. 'Cause one of the things I've noticed over all my years of talking about this, writing about it, and actually trying to do it like Michael Fullan said, you don't just write about this. You actually try to do it, which is a different is that every year, education comes up with new initiatives, new things to work on. I know you talk about this, Peter, from an implementation side. And it's the brand new thing that comes from the state or federal government, sometimes from the business world, and we jump to that issue, and there's no focus.

[00:08:01.70] And so what I'm always trying to do is get people focused and get away from the things that they keep or told every year or new initiatives to do and focus on what's right. Even when I coached at the state level, I used to tell districts all the time don't pay attention to all the things that even the state and federal government telling you because if you follow everything they say, the student achievement will not increase, and then they're going to cite you as underperforming.

[00:08:30.15] So I want you to focus on what matters to students and move the other stuff to the side. And then if you get results, nobody's going to bother you from the state and federal side.

[00:08:41.72] PETER DEWITT: So that's hard, though, right? For school, like when I'm working with school leaders, it's very difficult for them to focus because they just have-- they have so much coming at them. And so how do you get them to focus on what matters and push that stuff to the side? Like you must get pushback when you're having those kind of conversations.

[00:09:04.19] LYLE KIRTMAN: Oh, I do. All the time. That's why I coach leaders, and they'll say, but you don't understand what happened to me today. Good. Tell me what happened to you today. And they'll tell me, well, this came up, and then I had to handle that problem. And I said, actually those were all issues that you should have coached your leaders about because now you get to handle those problems again. Well, I don't know if they can do what I would do. That's your job. How do you get clear about those expectations and coach them?

[00:09:30.18] So it's a very slippery slope, and it got worse-- much worse during the pandemic that everybody can justify all the activities and reactions they do. We're a total reactive world. And we've got to get out in front of things, and that changes things around. So it's really-- and the lead piece I talk about in the article is we're not clear of what the results are. And, you know, when I work in business or other sectors, you can't have an effective organization if you don't know what your outcomes are.

[00:10:00.59] And we actually have data that about 70%-- because we do these leadership assessments-- 70% of the time educators spend is not on outcomes for students. 70%, what are they doing? They're reacting to the day-to-day needs to all the initiatives. So I want them to get focused on that north star of what you are seeing as results. And I can talk about how we do that and how we can do it fast. We take too long. We have too much process, too many tasks.

[00:10:30.68] So we got to shorten the time where the problem is people are quitting education every day, and because they're getting worn out. When-- if we make it clear and concise, they're going to be excited about staying. And that's people don't realize that we keep adding in new things for teachers to do. That makes them quit, and that's why they're quitting.

[00:10:50.23] PETER DEWITT: So when it-- why do you think that is, though? Because, you know, it's funny when I'm going through collaborative inquiry with leaders or teacher teams or whatever, you know, we talk about what are your priorities, and what are they based on, right? And they've got to be based on exactly what you're talking about, which is what is your evidence or your data actually showing you is that area that they're supposed to focus on. And then when you start, it's interesting. I ask them what is your success criteria, and that's more of the qualitative like the process that you see. What would you see if you had success?

[00:11:27.38] And then what are the outcomes that you want, and when you get to the part where you start to ask them about what evidence that they collect, they don't always know. So, as a coach, do you find yourself-- because this is what I do, and I think you're an expert. And I want to know, am I doing this correctly? When I'm listening to them, and they start talking about CFAs, or they start talking about their PLCs, you know, all the acronyms. I start looking at what part of data is that.

[00:12:00.42] Sometimes, I'll use [INAUDIBLE] work and just start is that school processes is that student learning data. Why do you think it's so hard? Because for years, we've talked about-- I mean, I remember a book on evidence that Cheryl Ward, and Doug Fisher, Nancy Frey wrote years ago, where they said schools are awash with data, but they don't always know what to do with it. So why is it that we have so many data points and then we don't necessarily dive into that? Is it because we have too much, or is it because we don't know what to do with it?

[00:12:32.64] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yeah. No, it's really interesting that you say that because part of it also part of our research shows that about 70% of teachers are not driven by data. So they actually get a negative reaction to data. So because they have that negative reaction if we give them more data, they're not going to grab on to it to do it. Now, what we need to do is get them clear again about the outcomes. So I'll give you an example.

[00:12:59.33] I just had a state call me, and they had a lot of money from the federal government around literacy. And I talked to the head of the Superintendents Association. Well, we're doing it the way we always do it. So we're doing all this training on literacy. We got experts from around the country about reading, then people said they're struggling with change, and now we got experts on change. But we realized from what you're saying is we're only focusing on content, and the content is not connecting to the people.

[00:13:27.58] So we want you to come in and help our instructional coaches understand how do we actually coach the people to do what we're talking about, and they're calling it the science of implementation, which is fine. It's kind of some of the words you've used because we don't understand we have to connect to the people to think differently. We can't keep throwing things in. We're throwing all these ideas into a vessel that is stuck in activities. If you're focused on results, it's not just learning about reading. It's actually implementing that so that student achievement improves.

[00:14:00.88] That's a whole different factor that we always think is on the side, and it will automatically happen. It actually doesn't.

[00:14:07.80] PETER DEWITT: There's so much research. See, this is why I love talking to you, and this is why I enjoyed our conversation from the very first time because now I have so much, you know, that-- I remember years ago, Tom Gorski, who I value his work, and he's brilliant. He did a study where he actually gave I think it's like 10 data points to teachers and to school leaders and wanted them to rank them from 1 to 10.

[00:14:30.87] And, you know, it was like teacher-made tests to maybe common formative assessments to statewide data or some standardized test. And when the teachers ranked it, they ranked number one was teacher-made tests, number 10 was standardized tests. When leaders ranked it, number one was standardized tests, number 10 was teacher-made tests.

[00:14:54.51] So as part of the reason why teachers don't necessarily like the data or don't want more coming at them is because we're asking them to use data that they don't necessarily value is that a part of it?

[00:15:08.35] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yes. You know, I'll give you a concrete example. I had a principal say to me I have a teacher who hates data, and she will not talk about. I said give me 10 minutes to talk to her. So I asked her that I would like to talk to her. Are you going to tell me why data is so important to me? I said no, I'm not going to tell any of that to you 'cause she's already defensive. She was an art teacher.

[00:15:31.30] So I said so how are your students doing? Oh, they're doing really well. That's great. So how do you know your students are doing? And she said well, I can see their look in their eyes. I said all right. So how do you know that it's not just glazed over from the night before that they didn't sleep? 'Cause I'm very direct. And she said I actually don't know. You're right.

[00:15:54.74] I said wouldn't it be interesting to look at some data? She said yeah, that's a great idea. 'Cause I didn't come at it from a data set. Because she doesn't know. But instead of saying you need to look at the data and she gets defensive, I asked her how do you know. And the person who doesn't look at data doesn't really know. Now, they may have some observations that are helpful. So we don't want to discount their observations that everything's about data.

[00:16:20.19] So one of the things I talk about is don't be data-driven, be data-informed. If we're data-driven, we turn off these people. If we're data-informed, we value their point of view.

[00:16:30.51] PETER DEWITT: So, you know-- and that's interesting to me too because a few years ago, there was this Harvard study from Kraft that came out on instructional coaching. And most of the-- there were 60 studies so as a meta analysis. And most of the studies were like K2 instructional coaches working with teachers, and what they found is that when they looked at whether an instructional coach could get a teacher to change a strategy, it was like a 0.4849 effect size.

[00:16:56.21] But when they looked at whether the strategy had an impact on student learning, it was more of a 0.18 effect size. And I remember John Hattie talking during a session one time that we were having, and he had said in the 1980s through like 2000; researchers used to look at whether professional learning or professional development, which is what it was called back then had an impact on teachers change in a strategy and it did. So the effect size of professional development was really high.

[00:17:25.76] But in the 2000 until now, the effect size of professional learning has gone down because the researchers changed the question from whether the strategy is having an impact on teachers to whether it's having an impact on students. And that's really-- that's all part of what you're talking about too, which is that's the thing that I think is really interesting to be able to talk about because when I'm going through collaborative inquiry with the people that I coach when you ask them how do you know?

[00:17:56.58] I mean, there are two basic questions, right? How do we know what we're doing has an impact on student learning, and how do we evaluate our own impact, and that's why I engage in collaborative inquiry, not just so principals or teachers can know but also for me in my own coaching work. Like this is something you and I care about. You want-- you, as a coach, want to have an impact.

[00:18:16.99] And it is one of the things you said earlier, which also was very interesting to me, and I wanted to be able to get it out is that from a state level, I'm the lead advisor for some states, and when you do meet with some people from state organizations, they want to talk about the content, and they want to talk about who are-- the who are the speakers that we can get because I think it's-- and I just had this conversation at a workshop in Texas as well because it's about who can we draw in because we've got the name as opposed to know what's your success criteria, what is it you-- what are we supposed to be-- like what is it you want to do with this information.

[00:18:59.67] So it's interesting that you say that too because that's something that I experience all the time. How do we change that dynamic?

[00:19:08.05] LYLE KIRTMAN: Well, you know, since you and I both speak and present, we can become part of the problem, right? Because it's not about what we say, it's about what they do. So my feeling is-- and I've talked to you that-- I've been moving against the way we do professional development. Let's take real-life situations. Let's put a cross-section of people in the room and let's deal with the real-life situations, and then let's look at what we need to learn from that and then back and apply.

[00:19:36.33] What we do is we train and give professional development to implement. The problem with that approach is it doesn't work, and it's been worse since the pandemic because people are so stressed. So we're thinking if we give them professional development, they'll sit back as teachers or administrators. They'll think in an integrative way, pull all this together and apply it. When are they actually going to do that? They're too stressed out they're trying to survive their lives. It's not going to happen.

[00:20:03.87] So let's go to real life and then go back and forth to the real situation. You'll get much better, which is what John Hattie is talking about.

[00:20:11.93] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, And you and I-- I mean, that's-- to be clear, you and I both are approaching it that way. I think it's having a hybrid approach where you're somewhere maybe three or four times in person, and then monthly, you're remote. But one of the things that I try to do is, from the very beginning, bring in those real-life situations, and I have to admit it's uncomfortable for people because I'll use a protocol like there's a micro lab protocol where you can ask three questions. And, you know, you get people in groups of three and all that stuff, or you can use the realm of concern realm of influence, and when you do that, though-- and I wonder if you find this too.

[00:20:50.57] When I, from the very beginning, will start using these protocols as opposed to just delivering content and saying this is what you want to know or you need to know, I find that I'm actually I need to be more intentional these days to even say like go overboard on saying this is why we're using this protocol because I don't want to be the one talking to you about what you should be doing. I want to draw out what the issues are so then we can talk about together, you know, what to do. Do you find that people find your approach uncomfortable because--

[00:21:23.88] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yeah, because-- I mean, you think about this-- Yeah, this is where the coherence that Michael and I wrote about 'cause I talk about the coherence of behavior. So we want students to learn, and we want this to be about learning. So we do professional development as teaching without learning, which is interesting. It's not clear, right? So now we're switching it, and the person providing the professional development, but I don't get to present my 20 slides, no.

[00:21:50.73] You have to get--

[00:21:52.17] PETER DEWITT: 20? How about 58?

[00:21:56.13] LYLE KIRTMAN: I mean, I've worked with other-- I've work with another consultant, and she said, but we're going to get evaluated poorly. That's OK. Let them evaluate me. I'm fine with this. Two slides, we're going to connect it to the work.

[00:22:07.36] So every time I've done it, then we do our ratings. 100% positive ratings from everybody. Now, we do not get 100% because we're talking about the actual application and the learning. So yes, they're very uncomfortable because people have jobs that are titled. Professional development and coordinating professional development, but it's the same thing with teaching. It's about learning. It's about making a difference for students, not just providing content and data.

[00:22:32.61] It's a very uncomfortable but very successful strategy. And the people who love it are the teachers. The recipients of it it's the providers and the central office.

[00:22:44.13] PETER DEWITT: Well, I think it's key what you're saying too because I was guilty. Years ago, when I started running professional development, it was here's the content, and I've got to get through the content. And then, over the years of experience, it was these people aren't going back to process what we're talking about. They need time now. So making that shift is something-- it took a lot of-- it's hard to not control all of the dialogue.

[00:23:11.91] Now, as I get older, I'm not as concerned. Over the years, I've learned not to do that, but that's definitely a part of it. And you also said something that's really key that is that you do this when you're going into coach and when you're going into facilitate, but what we really need people to do is from the district office standpoint, how often do they give building leaders and teachers time to process the information? Like when we're facilitating, and we're using a protocol, it's just being intentional about saying this is a protocol you can use back at your school because you should be doing this too because ultimately, they go back to the district office, and they'll run a meeting, and they talk at the people, and then they give them five minutes to go through data, and that's not enough time either.

[00:24:03.54] I want to ask you-- I want to ask you a question because I love talking to you and is there--

[00:24:09.12] LYLE KIRTMAN: Same here.

[00:24:09.61] PETER DEWITT: So I hear people talk about data and evidence interchangeably. Is there a difference between the two, or is it just words?

[00:24:17.31] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yeah, no. I think the evidence is connected more to the achievement because data is a data point and there are multiple data points. That's why I'm not even a big fan of SMART goals, which everybody does because to me we're picking one data point, and it's only one data point. It doesn't define full results. So I like to call it indicators of success. So what are the things that we see as evidence of success because when we do SMART goals, I notice, for example, people set the lowest possible goals so they meet it.

[00:24:51.30] So it doesn't connect to the achievement. It connects to how they get an evaluation or they get through their expectations. So I think there is a big difference. So a lot of my work is always trying to get people to understand the outcomes and change your behaviors to the outcomes, which cuts down the test because I'll give you a quick example. I had a school the other day that said I don't have any time to do this work because we have to send out a newsletter. So I said just have one question does anybody read your newsletter?

[00:25:21.42] No. OK. So nobody reads your newsletter very few. So what is your strategy? We're going to do more newsletters this year. And that's-- so I'm going to save you a lot of time. Don't do the newsletter. Figure out what you're trying to connect to people and how you would do it, and how it would make a difference. So we fill ourselves so much with activities that we've always done that they never get to the outcomes. So when they get the data in, they can't connect the data to an outcome is the problem, and they're just so busy doing every little thing that makes absolutely no difference.

[00:25:57.33] And then the state and federal government throws more tasks to do and push special Ed gets them even more tasks to do and more forms to fill out, and they can't get back. So I cut all that stuff out and go right to the heart.

[00:26:11.22] PETER DEWITT: Can you-- so can you provide us, you know, I'm all about being intentional. Can you provide some examples of what a data point would be? I know this sounds silly, but I think there are people that-- or might sound silly. I think there are people that don't necessarily know that. And so can you provide some examples of what a data point might be and then some examples of what evidence could be?

[00:26:33.69] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yeah. So I worked with-- I had a superintendent and said OK, let's try your approach with a middle school team because we've been doing compliance. We're doing, and the results are getting worse. So I said great. So then you leave these people alone and let me help them focus on the right stuff. So I got them talking about-- it was a math team, and he was a-- he's a math-- ex-math teacher so he loves math.

[00:26:59.67] So I asked them what their outcomes were. Well, they couldn't tell me their outcomes. They weren't clear. So they said well we're supposed to follow the math curriculum. I said to what end. Well, so that we follow the curriculum. So we-- I said what happens when somebody learns from the math what can they do. How can they think? And they started talking about measurements on standardized tests, which are part of it, which we need to do 'cause I believe they should be in there. They've got too much play 'cause they're not the only thing. And that's my problem with it, but I think we should do it.

[00:27:34.97] But then they talked about how could somebody actually enjoy math and be able to apply math to other subjects. OK. Great. So now we can talk about interdisciplinary. How would your work around math connect into other classes, and how would you do that, and how would it be built into reading to get results for kids, and what are the results? So it's that tracking that I think needs to happen.

[00:28:00.06] Another example I had is I had a second-grade teacher who said I'm not very good at leadership or any of teaching at all right now. And she told me what she was trying to accomplish with her kids. And I said, well, how do you know any of this works? She said I have no idea. So I said do you have any idea where you would find out. She said could I talk to the next grade is that legal to talk to the teachers at the next grade. She want to know if it was legal. I said no, there's not a law that you can't talk to another teacher.

[00:28:31.89] So she went in and said here's what I was trying to do with these kids and get them to learn. What happen in the next grade? Were they equipped to do this? Did they struggle with it? What were the issues? So now I can inform my practice.

[00:28:42.93] We don't do things like that 'cause we say there's no time. This woman literally thought it was illegal to do this. I said it's not an illegal issue. So I think if we stay on that results side, the measurements are the learning. I mean, had another good example of what's the metrics around reading. We're trying to get test scores on reading. Well, that's a data point, but what do you really want from reading, and they came back to me and said we want to create readers in our class.

[00:29:13.41] OK. Now that's a little further than a test score. So what does it mean to be a reader? So they define what it meant to be a reader that you have an interest in reading, and that you-- so then they started looking at measurements along that line. So if somebody is really a reader, will they do better on test scores? Yeah, there's a direct correlation.

[00:29:33.58] PETER DEWITT: Yeah, you remind me when you're going through collaborative inquiry there are times that when you ask people what their priorities are it happens quite a bit where people will say, well, we want to increase test scores, and they'll name whatever test that they're talking about, and I say is that really your priority, or is the priority the learning part of it and then that's part of the data point that you're going to use as evidence and that.

[00:30:03.21] But it-- I don't know if-- I feel like it's sad that people will say that our priority is to raise test scores. And I understand the pressure. I used to be a school principal. So I get that, but that that's the go to and we don't often enough talk about the learning that's involved, and when you redirect people about that's why success criteria can be really important. So tell me what would success look like if, and as they go through that conversation, it's a deeper-- they start to get the deeper meaning behind what the priority really is.

[00:30:33.75] But you're right, you know, having that time to have that conversation it doesn't happen often enough. And what I find is that people-- there hasn't been a downside to it like when you're doing-- when you're having these conversations is very rarely do you have a person leave saying I'm really mad that we just talked about learning and priorities.

[00:30:56.69] LYLE KIRTMAN: No, they get motivated.

[00:30:57.41] PETER DEWITT: I mean, they actually leave saying I wish we could talk about this more as opposed to some other things that we're doing.

[00:31:04.49] LYLE KIRTMAN: I see this is where the teacher crisis is we can't get teachers because of the other problems. If you actually talk about what they care about like this, they get motivated and want to stay. So we say, well, let's decrease their stress by having them take a yoga class. I think yoga class is a meditation are great. You got to change the conditions in the conversations to have sustainable change because once the yoga class and the meditation are over, they go back to an environment which is stressful.

[00:31:30.44] So I want a combination of things. And this relates to-- I don't know if you want to pursue this about the equity and social emotional work because that's the same thing. That's all done separately. It's not integrated together. So the measurements are equity measurements, social emotional measurements. To me, they're learning measurements which incorporate equity, and that would save 1,000 hours of time for people if they did that way and get better results.

[00:31:56.85] PETER DEWITT: You're right. We do things as silos or isolated incidents, right? And sometimes people on the publishing side and facilitators workshops are responsible for that too because that's what they're using as the anchor for the work that they're doing, and hopefully, it's about embedding it-- embedding it in as opposed to making it this own thing too. We have to-- I could talk with you for hours. And, you know, it's funny I think people need to know the first time we talked, we didn't know each other.

[00:32:33.94] And when we started to talk, you said some things that I kind of like my shoulders went up, and I was like, well, wait a second. I think I need to argue. And we talked for a while, and just you are blunt.

[00:32:48.15] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yes.

[00:32:49.05] PETER DEWITT: That's a word. But you're blunt in a really respectful and like respectful, and you have expertise behind the bluntness, and you're not doing-- what I think is great about your bluntness is that some people can be blunt, and it comes off rude, and you're just kind of like you turn somebody off. You can be blunt, but it's actually in a very positive and researched way, and it's very empathetic at the same time. And that's not easy for people--

[00:33:22.46] LYLE KIRTMAN: I know because I say things to commissioners, state superintendents, leaders presidents of colleges, and people always say, how do you get away with that? [LAUGHTER]

[00:33:34.70] PETER DEWITT: Well, definitely one meal in a 30-minute conversation. But as we wrap it up, what is one thing that you want people to take away from this podcast. I mean, I think we've covered a lot of ground, and you've given a lot of really great information. But, you know, what is one thing you want people to consider when they're leaving this podcast?

[00:33:55.97] LYLE KIRTMAN: Yeah, I mean what? I'm doing a presentation later today. You know, I start with integrate things, don't separate them. Stop doing all these committees. Stop and integrate things together. Make things smaller and more concise and clear. Don't get rid of process, but focus it. But then get your clarity of what your outcomes are and make it so that everybody can understand it.

[00:34:16.80] If you collapse all these things and you focus, then you have a way to stay on course. And then you've got to figure out how all these things are going to come at you. You're not going to jump to. If they integrate in fine. If they're not, you're going to have to put them off. If it's a compliance requirement-- people look me up. They say Lyle says get a C in compliance. I do.

[00:34:38.43] So if it's a compliance requirement that does not impact your work do it. Get it done quickly and put very little time. If it makes a difference on safety or achievement, then you do it well. So do not get distracted by that. And you have to do it every day all the time. That's why I say around the social emotional and the equity it should be a lens at every conversation. I don't care if you're talking about a facilities issue. You're talking-- it's always in every conversation.

[00:35:04.15] It's not-- I always say it's not equity Thursday, social emotional Friday. It's every day. It's part of that.

[00:35:11.17] PETER DEWITT: Lyle Kirtman, thank you so much for being on Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. It is always an honor to talk to you.

[00:35:18.87] LYLE KIRTMAN: All right. Thank you again for engaging and dealing with my directness.

[00:35:26.22] PETER DEWITT: I think it's refreshing. So it's not an issue on my side.

[00:35:29.62] LYLE KIRTMAN: All right. Thank you.

[00:35:34.40] TANYA GHANS: Well, we probably had dozens of episodes at this point we must have, but I think this might rank amongst one of my favorites because I do love people who cut to the chase and really try to help people in this profession. Really think about what's going to matter the most for kids, and I think Lyle Kirtman is one of those people who really, really, really feels it in his bones. He's not peddling anything, not that any of our guests are, but he is really about how do we help leaders take almost a risk to get focused on what is going to really work for kids.

[00:36:14.78] One thing that stood out to me, which is I think a conundrum that leaders find themselves in, and maybe all kinds of people who are leading things is, on the one hand, you want to follow what you're told to do say from the state or from the feds or something because you think that's how you will get the accolades or how you'll do well.

[00:36:36.17] But what really matters is the outcomes that you produce for kids, and that's how you actually get the kind of-- if you're looking for recognition through student achievement and learning and well-being that you actually get it by focusing on what you know works and almost having the courage to say if this doesn't connect with my work or this is going to interfere with our goals for a school, then I'm willing to take a hit if you will, or I'm willing to-- I'll be the buffer for that for my school or my district, but we're going to focus here because we know that that's what's best for kids and then that result ends up being the better one.

[00:37:13.97] So I think it's interesting.

[00:37:16.48] PETER DEWITT: Yeah. He is-- he is definitely a guy that one conversation sticks in the back of my mind when I'm facilitating a workshop, or when I'm going through collaborative inquiry, or when I'm thinking about how effective am I in my own work. There's just something about the way he goes about a conversation, and the examples he provides and the expertise that he comes with that to me is something that sticks with me. And it's funny because he's been around for a long time.

[00:37:53.32] He has worked, you know, at the state level, which is probably part of the reason why I didn't necessarily know him, nor did I see him coming. But I'm really glad that Michael Fullan made the introduction because the expertise that he has means a lot to me in my own work. And what I'm thinking about as I move forward. So I also enjoyed. You know, I asked the question the difference between data and evidence because, you know, I wanted-- sometimes we use words interchangeably, and sometimes we're using them wrong.

[00:38:29.22] And I enjoyed that he talked about what a data point is and how it builds up to the evidence and those kind of pieces too. So even from that granular common understanding, which you and I both want to do when we're doing the podcast, it was really important.

[00:38:45.31] TANYA GHANS: Yeah, yeah, I love the distinctions and just getting at the real definitions of what words mean. I think it's as important in 2023 as it's ever been. A last piece that also stuck out to me from the professional learning side was his call to get to the application get to the learning. When you're working with people, just what we say for teachers all the time, kind of get off the stage faster and get quicker into what are people dealing with on the ground. And be there to help them wrestle with it, because that's how you can start to actually affect change that you think is going to happen when they go back to their buildings.

[00:39:22.16] So I thought that's-- so it's a simple thing, but it's the kind of thing that's easy to-- it's easy to forget. So wonderful conversation. Thoroughly enjoyed this one.

[00:39:31.33] PETER DEWITT: Well, thank you for supporting me on this one when I brought it to you but--

[00:39:35.26] TANYA GHANS: Of course.

[00:39:36.28] PETER DEWITT: For listeners, give us your feedback. Let us know. And thank you very much for listening. And Tanya, it's always good to see you.

[00:39:44.95] TANYA GHANS: I will look forward to learning with you next time, and please leave comments or subscribe, hit all the bells and whistles, whatever it is that you can do. We'd love to have your feedback on the show.

[00:39:55.00] PETER DEWITT: Absolutely.

[00:39:56.14] TANYA GHANS: OK. Take care.

[00:39:57.19] [MUSIC PLAYING]