Be a Ripple

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[00:00:03.10] INSTRUCTOR: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher and university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.99] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Welcome to season three of the Teacher to Teacher podcast. I am your host, Carol Pelletier Radford. And I am happy to be part of a conversation with two experienced educators today. The theme for season three is based on the book I wrote titled Teaching With Light, 10 Lessons for Finding Wisdom, Balance and Inspiration.

[00:01:13.86] Each of the 10 episodes for this season mirrors the 10 lessons in the book. And today's episode is titled Be a Ripple. And let's begin by having our guests, Afrika with a K and Jenna introduce themselves. I'm so happy that the two of you could be on the episode today. And I think Be a Ripple is perfect for the work that you're both doing.

[00:01:43.37] So, Jenna, let's start with you. And share how you got into teaching and what you're doing now. And it's going to influence our conversation. So welcome, Jenna.

[00:01:55.54] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be.

[00:01:57.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, you've very welcome.

[00:02:00.69] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: I got into teaching. I was living in Los Angeles and seeing a lot of social woes of what's going on in LA. I was actually working in a homeless shelter and started to think about how I could contribute more. And I always loved kids, and in some ways it was very naive. But I thought, I'll just go be a teacher. That's what I'll do.

[00:02:23.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So many people have that story. I know.

[00:02:28.17] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: And so went to a program in LA and got certified, elementary certification. So that's how I got into teaching.

[00:02:36.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And what are you doing now then? From that beginning journey to what you're-- describe your consulting firm and how you're supporting teachers right now?

[00:02:47.93] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Yeah. So through a whole process, I taught kindergarten through graduate school in about 20 years-- over a period of about 20 years, and started to think about how identity impacts teaching and learning and how what I chose to teach and how what I taught was received, and what and how I was teaching. And so I really focused on that and started a conference called the Multicultural Teaching Institute to focus on my identity.

[00:03:21.22] And through that work became really focused on race because when we talked about race in education, we were only ever talking about Black and brown families, colleagues, students. And I wondered why we were never naming whiteness when we know about 84% of teachers in this country are white. And we know that that doesn't match the population.

[00:03:43.04] So through that, started a blog just to see what other people were doing around the country. I wanted to know what were best practices, how do we talk about whiteness? Do we talk about whiteness? And through that I thought it would be really cool because there's so much emotion when people talk about race, I think I'll start a podcast.

[00:04:03.17] So I started a podcast Teaching While White, and once that launched, then I left my middle school teaching job and started consulting full time. I'm now working as an instructional coach in the Providence public schools and also continuing to consult around the country.

[00:04:23.87] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. We're going to hear more about how you're rippling out this message Teaching While White. Thank you. Afrika.

[00:04:31.14] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Hey.

[00:04:31.39] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: How are you? I think we know each other a little bit.

[00:04:35.25] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: We do. We do.

[00:04:36.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I know. I didn't know we knew each other. So introduce yourself and your teaching background and what you're doing right now.

[00:04:46.58] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yeah, so Afrika Afeni Mills. I started thinking about becoming a teacher. I think in a lot of ways, I'm someone who's always loved to write ever since I was a little kid. And at first I thought I was going to be-- like I was going to work for essence magazine. And I was going to be write these fiction novels and all of these things. But as I try-- I was actually in a graduate creative writing program at Boston University and realized that I really-- when I thought about what was formative for me and powerful for me in my own life as a child was particularly my fourth and fifth grade classroom teachers.

[00:05:21.11] And so then I transferred over to Boston College and ended up becoming a certified elementary teacher and started out teaching like fourth and fifth grade. And then spent a number of years in teacher development, whether it be as a new teacher developer, as a literacy coach, as an administrator in some ways. And so now fast forward to what I'm doing now, I am the founder and CEO of Continental Drift LLC, which is my consulting company, and I'm also an adjunct instructor at Boston College, which feels really full circle for me.

[00:05:55.36] That way I got my degree from. But my son is at BC. He's a rising senior at Boston--

[00:05:59.94] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my goodness. Three of my sons went to Boston College as well. Yes. Two are teachers, and the third works in humanitarian efforts. And you and I were at BC at the same time because there was the certification officer.

[00:06:18.97] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: The one who--

[00:06:21.13] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that's probably why I remembered Africa with a K. And you were there getting your beginning launch into teaching. And look at the ripple that your life, or both of your lives have taken since you made that decision to be a teacher.

[00:06:38.99] So let's get to the episode. So the title of this episode is Be a Ripple. And I'm really excited that the two of you are the guests for this show because I think your messages-- and I must confess do know each other. So I want to pull that into the podcast conversation to our listeners, because usually this is like the dating game. We have two guests, and they don't know each other. And we and we see where people connect because the message across teaching is we're pretty much a lot of the time have the same challenges and issues.

[00:07:17.18] So for today though would be a ripple. I chose you on purpose that you knew each other because I think the message is so strong. And I want our listeners to hear how you both collaborated because that can be an underscore message for our listeners to collaborate with other teachers around the discussion of culture and diversity and race.

[00:07:42.23] So why don't we start with how you know each other and have full disclosure in this episode that we're not going to pretend they don't know each other.

[00:07:52.22] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: No, no, no, no.

[00:07:52.98] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Afrika?

[00:07:53.81] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yes.

[00:07:54.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: How do you know Jenna? How did this relationship-- how did you connect?

[00:07:58.74] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yeah, so I started out massively fangirling Jenna because I was-- yeah, absolutely. So I was at a point in my career as an educator where I had been exploring and pursuing professional learning opportunities around culturally responsive teaching and learning.

[00:08:17.91] And I was like, yes, this is, this is important. It's important for people to understand what it really is, because I think there was and now is still a misunderstanding of what it means to be culturally responsive. And so a lot of times I'm like, OK, it seems like it's about like trying to make the world better for Black and brown kids. And I was like, that's no, that's some of it, but not all of it.

[00:08:40.28] There seems to be something missing. And I'm just like OK, we're talking about the Black and brown babies. We need to get into the nuance of those conversations. And I'm like, well, what about the white babies? I'm like, what is it that they're engaging with when it comes to this conversation?

[00:08:53.48] And so I started like, I'm a massive-- like when I talk about deep dive for resources, that's like my reputation and my family. Everybody who knows me. The resource queen, right? So I started doing searches online and trying to find out like resources around like anti-racist teaching.

[00:09:08.87] And I found the Teaching While White podcast and blog. And I was like, what is this?

[00:09:14.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Ooh, who is doing this?

[00:09:17.33] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: What is this? It's like, you got to look it up. And I'm just like, how do I contact these folks? And it's like got to contact info@teachingwhilewhite. And so I was like, hello, I was trying to get in contact with you, but I really would love to connect. And Jenna wrote me back.

[00:09:32.39] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Jenna, what was your reaction when you heard from Afrika? Thank you, Afrika. What was this? Like who is this? No.

[00:09:42.05] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Well, I could tell by by her email that she knew what she was talking about. And a lot of the emails we get are from teachers who are very new to the subject. But she dove right in and had all sorts of questions. And so we were having actually a launch party of our organization. And I said, why don't you come?

[00:10:03.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Ooh. I love it.

[00:10:05.43] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: And because we were both in the Boston area. And so she did. And after it was over, I went and found her and started talking to her. And I think you named it Carol. We have to be in community, and we have to have our people in this work. And when I met Afrika, it was one of those-- I don't mean to sound corny-- but you feel a vibration when things are like aligned.

[00:10:32.23] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You get the goosebumps.

[00:10:35.11] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: And so when I was talking to her after this event, I just knew that we were going to stay in touch, and that we would work together.

[00:10:43.72] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that's it. And there you are. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm getting the goosebumps too because I'm hoping our listeners are hearing the two of you. And this is the community, and they're going to connect with you after this podcast. The resources will be listed in the description.

[00:11:02.38] And your podcast will be featured and Afrika's Ted talk, because this is a conversation. It's not one and done. It's not like one podcast for 30 minutes. We met you two wonderful people. It's the beginning for a lot of teachers who really don't know where to turn, and I'm just grateful.

[00:11:23.27] So let's get into stories. So that's how you know each other. We're talking about being a ripple. But our connection to cultural responsiveness and race comes from our hearts and our stories. So Afrika, so what happened in your life that made you end up here and not in the classroom, which is not a bad place to be, but you are driven to do something else? So what happened? Tell me what happened. What's your story?

[00:11:57.57] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yeah, so I will-- thinking about what it felt like to be a brand new teacher and the ongoing support that's needed to make sure that teachers have what they need, not just as far as like materials, but like the ongoing community conversation, someone to be a thought partner to walk alongside you. Just like in other professions, it seems like it's common that that happens. But for some reason when it comes to teaching, it's not emphasized as much, or at least in my experience. That wasn't what it was.

[00:12:26.17] So after being a classroom teacher for a bit and having the opportunity to from being a classroom teacher become a literacy coach, oh my gosh, I fell in love with teacher development because being able to be with teachers, to look deeply into the literature that we're engaging students with, to see how that connected to them, to their families, to community, it just was such a rich experience. And so for me, I just was really very convinced after becoming involved in that work, that if we believe what we say about our children and needing to invest in them and them being the future, then that means we absolutely cannot just only pay lip service to supporting teachers.

[00:13:03.94] And so yeah, just really loved being someone to walk alongside and support classroom teachers as they were teaching and to be able to create and sustain that community.

[00:13:15.07] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love working with teachers. I think teachers are just-- well, look, I'm still supporting teachers. I've been in the field for-- I don't want to say-- decades.

[00:13:25.70] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: A long time.

[00:13:27.02] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: But what did it feel like when you were teaching as a beginning teacher? Because I think teachers have these-- beginning teachers that I work with a lot of novices are overwhelmed by the discussion of race and culture and responsiveness, and it just adds to the stress. What was that experience for you? Was that was that your experience as a beginning teacher?

[00:13:49.86] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I will say that I did not have that support in my schools themselves. But thankfully I was teaching at a time where there were lots of opportunities that we could choose to lean into. The biggest thing that helped me was like there was a collaboration between like Boston Public schools and Suffolk university and what was then the Museum of Afro-American History. But now it's Museum of African-American History.

[00:14:16.02] And it was called Blacks in Boston. And I was like, my parents taught me a lot of stuff, but I didn't really know what was happening over here. Right. It was a week long institute that changed everything for me because there was so much that I learned that-- yeah, I never heard about before.

[00:14:32.77] And it was very-- especially because we talked a lot about the abolitionist movement. And I was very intrigued by that because there was cross-cultural collaboration around the abolitionist movement. And so that started to really pique my interest.

[00:14:47.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Jenna, what's your story? Why are you doing this work? What happened at the beginning of your career? Or what kind of sits in your heart that gives you that passion, Jenna?

[00:15:02.07] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Yeah, well, I think there's been a lot of experiences. But when I first started teaching, I thought, I'm a good person. I feel like I'm a pretty competent teacher. Even in the beginning I was pretty arrogant, I have to say honestly.

[00:15:20.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You thought--

[00:15:22.63] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: I thought I was-- yeah, I thought I was pretty good. And I started to see that even with the best intentions and all the work I was putting into things, I was actually causing harm. And you mentioned before that teachers are stressed talking about this. I think that's part of the stress is, am I causing harm? Do I really have to deal with this, or is this an extra? Or is this something that's integral to everything that I do in my classroom?

[00:15:54.16] And so those were the questions I started to ask. How-- and I think I said before, how my identity impacts teaching and learning and how the identity of the students impacts teaching and learning. And so really wanted to dive into that. But most of all, selfishly, to be a good teacher and not cause harm.

[00:16:13.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. And that's led you to helping other teachers understand and look at their own stories. So I'd ask our listeners, just stop and think for a moment, what are those pivotal moments? What are the stories where we make decisions? Like you two made a decision to actually change the course of your education career based on a feeling or what was happening to you in the classroom.

[00:16:40.01] So I'm inviting our listeners to do the same and to think of their stories and their pivotal moments. And I have a story I'm not going to share here, but it'll be on the bonus track. And the title of my story from the Teaching With Light Book is called Simply Sharing is Not so Simple.

[00:17:01.45] So we all have our own messages. And we want to work with teachers and professional development. And the story that I share in that link is we'll all know not all teachers want to hear everybody's sharing. And sometimes sharing is complicated because we don't have time to share. We don't have safe spaces to share. We don't have that physical space with K-12 teachers where it's not always in silos that we share, where we can see cross continuum attitudes from teachers who work with our students at different grade levels.

[00:17:39.99] So Simply Sharing is Not So Simple I hope that you will all listen to that. Thank you both for kind of grounding us in this conversation. Now let's get to the practical part of the podcast. So our listeners are always like, OK, so what can I use in the classroom? We got the stories, we got the pivotal moments. I have one too. But what is the message?

[00:18:03.68] I want to start with you, Afrika, because I listened to your Ted talk Four Ways to have Healthy Conversations About Race. And it really it touched my heart in a lot of different ways that I wished I had that when I was a teacher. You make it simpler and common sense.

[00:18:24.78] So even though I say it's simply sharing is not so simple, well, guess what? You made it, so I could understand what you were talking about.

[00:18:32.43] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Sure.

[00:18:32.90] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that I could do it. So we're going to ask people to listen to your Ted talk. We're going to put the link in the description. But can you just tell me not the four things, but what's your message in that Ted talk when you-- what do you want our listeners to hear?

[00:18:51.41] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I want us to be brave. I will say that that is one of the main things that I think is necessary because in this work that I've done-- and this is me too, right, so this is not just like-- me too write. All of us need to be brave.

[00:19:05.88] And I think about like because I am a Black woman, there's a certain lived and learned experience that I have. But there are a lot of other identities that I hold where I miss a lot of things, not because I'm malicious or I have ill intent, but we all know that intention and impacts are not always aligned. And so for me, in order for us to change, we need to be willing to be brave enough to admit that like, yeah, the way my thinking has formed about this or the opinions that I hold or the decisions that I've made or my even decisions to be silent about things comes from a place of fear more often than not.

[00:19:41.88] And so if we create community and sustain one another, we can-- I'm not saying-- like you said, sharing is simple. It's not simple to go into [INAUDIBLE]. But if we can support one another to do that work, then we all get to move into this. What we talk about what we want for kids, we actually can start to bring that about. And if we don't do it this, there's just really too much at stake for us and for the kids.

[00:20:05.73] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So what's one thing that a teacher or me that's supporting teachers could be brave about? What's the action? Or is it just in myself? Or is there a certain practical or actionable thing that we need to be brave about? What would you say.

[00:20:26.88] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I would say that a lot of times, and this is me coming from being a classroom teacher, from my experience, sometimes when we're frustrated, there's some talk that we can have amongst one another that can come from frustration, or it can come from a lack of awareness or connection to the school community where we say things that are not necessarily kind from all kids or that might be [INAUDIBLE].

[00:20:50.49] So the things we need to be brave about is if that happens or when that happens, to be able to say-- I think we all know when it's like, I was in the teacher's room and someone said this about a kid-- when you feel that discomfort, don't try to push it down, but be brave enough to say like, tell me more about that or say my experience with that family or that child is different.

[00:21:12.34] So able to offer a different narrative than what has been put forward about what we're seeing in students, especially when they are different from us racially or ethnically. Yeah, to be brave enough to speak up. Even if your voice shakes, speak.

[00:21:29.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, and Jenna kind of talked about that at the beginning when you did your intro, Jenna, about not doing something. So the bravery. What do you think about what Afrika just said, Jenna? And then I want to hear about your books, Afrika. You have some books that I want our listeners to hear about. But just react to what you just heard about being brave, and how does that fit for your for your message?

[00:21:54.54] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Yeah, I absolutely echo what Afrika said. It is about being brave. And I know for people like me, I was taught that conflict was bad, even saying things directly because I grew up in a culture where we didn't do that ever. We had roundabout ways of explaining things so that nothing was too personal.

[00:22:18.79] And so having the bravery to talk to people, and when I'm working with white folks around the country, that's the first thing we're trying to do is to get white people to speak up more often when they see things that they know are not right. Right? If somebody says or does something that's racially problematic, whether it be with a colleague or a student, to have the skills and the bravery to be able to speak up in those moments.

[00:22:47.32] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. And you're doing that with your podcast as well. I think you're creating a safe space for the message to be consistently heard, not just like a one and done. So I applaud you for having the energy and passion to have that message be in the world. And let's hear about your book now, Afrika. So title, tell us a little. Yes.

[00:23:13.20] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: So Open Windows, Open Minds, Developing Anti-Racist, Pro-Human Students.

[00:23:19.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Ooh. Pro-human. OK. So tell me how you came up with that title.

[00:23:24.37] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yeah, so I definitely need to give a shout out-- I mean, so many people supported me. So it kind of feels like the Oscars were it's like we have so much time to thank all the people who really contributed to?

[00:23:33.49] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Yes.

[00:23:34.38] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I will name in particular, there are definitely folks who I see as mentors who have repeated the message that we need to make sure they even as we're resisting something that is detrimental, if we focus only on that, then it's like, well, what are we building?

[00:23:50.31] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What are we for? What are we for? I love that.

[00:23:55.23] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I'm like, it is essential to be anti-racist, right? That is a sense we need to resist that because it is destructive for all of us. And so as we're doing that, we need to be-- I think this phrase I love from Dr. Bettina Love is "freedom dreaming."

[00:24:11.00] Like what is it that we want for our students and for ourselves as a society?

[00:24:14.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And for our teachers.

[00:24:16.31] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yeah, exactly. All of us. All of us.

[00:24:18.32] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All of us as we communicate with each other. Oh, I love that title.

[00:24:23.69] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: And so that's what, for me was like essential to write that book. And the first part of the book really focuses a lot on racial identity development and racial healing. And then for the educator, and then transitions into how do we support students with these same practices and perspectives.

[00:24:39.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So everyone should read this book.

[00:24:41.66] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Oh, absolutely.

[00:24:42.50] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Absolutely. Jenna, do you have a copy? Autographed copy? I hope.

[00:24:47.69] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: I do. I do.

[00:24:50.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, I'm getting my copy, and then I will get my copy as well. So what's like a big message? We want people to read it. But what's something practical or driven that we want our audience to hear about the book, a teaser, I guess if you will?

[00:25:09.59] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yes, I would say-- yeah. What comes to mind for me is you are absolutely worth the time that it takes to reflect on your own formation, reflect on your own growth and your own experiences. Reflect on the questions that you had as a child that you didn't get a chance to ask or have answered. And spend time doing that. Because not only is it good for you as a person, but it will help you as an educator to be formed a bit differently and to create spaces where students, have a much different experience than a lot of us have had in our school experiences.

[00:25:44.40] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So it's a reflection experience. It's a reflective process. And then, yes, as a teacher, I can use that reflection to guide me as to be pro-human with the students because I'm a human. We're all human.

[00:26:03.98] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: There are a lot of reflective spaces for the self--

[00:26:06.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. It sounds like a great experience. That sounds wonderful. Jenna, tell us-- your blog is continuing, your podcast. What currently-- do you have any special projects? Or-- I know you're working in Providence. Well, what's up for you? Where are you focusing? What's practical that teachers need to hear that you're doing?

[00:26:30.89] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Well, I just want to also say that we put out a book, Teaching While White also.

[00:26:36.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:26:37.80] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Yeah. It's called learning and Teaching While White, Anti-Racist Strategies for School Communities. And in it for each chapter, there's like something about assessment, about leadership, about parenting, all the different aspects of being part of a school community and talking about race.

[00:26:57.06] And I think the self-reflection piece is really important. And so similarly to Afrika's book, we have prompts for self reflection, but we also have ways to integrate what we're talking about into daily practice. So it is sort of a practical book.

[00:27:14.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Good, and that's what we need. I think teachers are looking for like, what do I do? I get it. What am I supposed to do now/ And I have to be brave, but I have to say something, but I'm not sure what to say.

[00:27:28.44] And-- so what would you two say has been the biggest challenge to this topic? Why is it so hard? What-- let's just get down to it. We want the message to be that we do it. But what's stopping us. What have you come up against, Afrika?

[00:27:53.30] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I think one of the biggest things is-- and like I said, I'm speaking from my experience as a classroom teacher and in my own training-- is that we unfortunately as classroom teachers, a lot of times get the message that we're supposed to have it all figured out, right? We're not supposed to make mistakes. We have to be-- I mean, even though we're told like, don't be the sage on the stage, but sometimes like but be the sage on the stage, right?

[00:28:14.01] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. It's-- yes, it's very conflicting message. Yes.

[00:28:18.26] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: So in order to be able to want to be in a reflective space about your own formation or the fractures that you may have had in your own upbringing or your own education, you have to be in a space where you can make mistakes, where you can admit, I don't know all the things where you can say that there's lots of stuff that I did not learn or that I did not know. And that's hard, right? Because [INAUDIBLE] about like, who's going to come into my classroom observed me? And how am I going to be proficient or exemplary in all these things?

[00:28:46.45] So I think is that. And then there's also just when it comes to a lot of the misinformation and directs like just not truth telling about history, about the things that have happened even like in the education space and just historically within the country and in society and an active resistance against learning history, that that has become more widespread. And there's been more of a push to veer away from the things that help us to be more connected to one another. there's a lot of fear there, right?

[00:29:19.30] So if I'm a teacher and I'm like, yes, I do believe that I should do this work, but if I'm going to be penalized for it or if I'm being told I have to take all these books out of my classroom, I might lose my job, then you're trying to decide between your livelihood and what you feel like is best for students. So, I mean, there's many challenges.

[00:29:35.31] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, yes.

[00:29:36.55] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Those are some of the key ones.

[00:29:37.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: But I think it begins by naming them and saying them out loud. So that's what I want this episode to do. Jenna, anything you want to add to that? I think Afrika said it very well.

[00:29:51.01] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: She did. There are so many to choose from. I think-- for me, it's that we get stuck in this conversation of I'm a good person or I'm a bad person, that there are people who are very intentionally trying to make any conversation about anti-racism, about saying that it's making people feel guilt and shame.

[00:30:13.37] And what we're trying to say is it's not about individual acts of being kind or unkind. It's about systemic and institutionalized things, behaviors, policies, et cetera. And we want to look at the big picture. And what we found in writing the book is that it's actually the absence of conversation that causes the guilt and shame, that if we give students and teachers the tools they need to be able to have the conversation, it lowers anxiety, it lowers guilt, it lowers shame because it's not about you and what you did or didn't do.

[00:30:52.28] It's about how we show up for each other as a community and how the system is supporting students, all students and all colleagues and all families.

[00:31:02.42] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. Thank you. I thank you both-- Afrika, you want to add to that?

[00:31:07.42] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I'm just co-signing everything.

[00:31:09.07] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. You're going, yes, yes, yes. I think it's important for us to acknowledge that as part of this podcast. We're going to-- winding down. Wow. This conversation was very rich. And I think the work is challenging but hopeful.

[00:31:28.34] So how do you to stay inspired? Because you probably have stress and sharing the message and coming up against these challenges. And how do you keep yourself human and whole? And Afrika, what do you do to keep yourself centered?

[00:31:46.89] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Yeah, I think so. For me, it's a balance of really being able to lean into my faith practices that are around like around solitude and silence and really making sure that I'm centered and grounded on love like that. That is the dominant part of my life, right? That is essential to me. And then I happened to have just a wonderful community of like family and friends who like-- I love to laugh. I love to dance.

[00:32:12.68] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, you do.

[00:32:13.72] And so all of those things. And remember-- I think this is some of the greatest advice I've seen is that as we're doing this work that we can't forget about joy. Really trying to hold on to joy everywhere we can find it.

[00:32:28.03] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for saying that. And I think what happens is we-- it's such a serious issue. We sometimes forget that we are all humans and we want to dance and relax, but to keep it going. Jenna, what about you? How do you stay balanced and centered?

[00:32:52.39] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Well, I find that the times where I feel most uncensored is when I feel like it's all on my shoulders. And I think and the way the system works, that often makes us feel like we are individually going to make or break something, right? And that it's on our shoulders to do.

[00:33:08.23] And so really reminding myself that it's not an either or situation, it's a both and situation. And that I have community and people who support and encourage the work that I do. And so that is huge for me. And as Africa said, to find joy and laugh with my friends and dance with my friends and do all those things that bring joy.

[00:33:32.89] And then the other part is the solitude for me as well. And I tend to do it. And walking some meditation. I'd like to say I do it every day, but I don't. But I do walk every day. I go for a walk every day. And that's sort of my, OK, I'm going to let everything go.

[00:33:48.96] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's downtime.

[00:33:50.13] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: And what am I sitting with and how can I take it from here?

[00:33:55.15] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. I am a practicing yoga teacher. And I did the yoga teacher training about 10 years ago. And one of the things that I learned that I do to minimize my anxiety is something called yoga for your hands, hand mudras.

[00:34:12.29] So we'll make sure in the bonus track for our listeners, there's a two minute mudra for your hands. I'll send it to both of you, so that you can practice it, because we just sometimes just need two minutes because mostly what teachers will say, I don't have time to be inspired because I'm too busy. But we all have two minutes. And that just shifts-- I think it shifts, especially around these topics that bring up nervousness or frustration for beginning teachers.

[00:34:44.14] And those experienced teachers who population of students is changing feel less confident in their teaching. But they've taught for 30 years. But now the students look different or are different. And I think we need to pay attention to those experienced teachers as well.

[00:35:01.90] So, well, winding down, so how have you both changed your thinking over time? I used to think this about rippling and working in this field of culturally responsive teaching. And what do you think now? Afrika, I used to think and now I think. How would you answer?

[00:35:24.70] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: I used to think that professional development for educators could only be about what can I do in my classroom tomorrow? And while that is important, I now think or know that it's really important to make sure we also take care of self and become aware of who we are, what shapes us, and what's going to lead to wholeness for ourselves and therefore for our school communities.

[00:35:49.19] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that influences the way we are in the classroom as human teachers by taking that time to reflect and understand why do I act this way. I act this way because of X, Y, Z. Somebody told me to when I was a kid. And Jenna, what did you use to think, and now what do you think?

[00:36:10.48] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: I used to think that it was possible to be a neutral person in the classroom. And that it was important to be neutral. And part of the way to do that was to uphold the norms, the standards, the status quo. And when I came to understand is that even when you don't say something, you're still saying something.

[00:36:36.22] The absence of information, the absence of certain stories in the classroom is still transmitting a message. It's just not explicit. Right. But it's implicit in what we value and what we think is worthy of teaching, of knowing, that that is still sending a message.

[00:36:54.55] And so disrupting the status quo like a ripple, I think of throwing a rock into the water. We need to disrupt that status quo to teach critical thinking, not to tell students what to think, but to teach students how to think. And how do we disrupt the status quo and make those ripples to make us question and see things from different perspectives and understand that there is no one way of being and doing?

[00:37:25.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you so much for that. We're kind of back full circle to being brave and the message at the beginning of the podcast conversation and all the different iterations and messages that you've shared with us today. So let's end with some good news around a very challenging topic, because John Krasinski inspired me during COVID with his SGN show. And I used to watch it because we it's OK to just have some good news once in a while. Both sides. So what's some good news? Afrika with a K, what's your good news?

[00:38:01.03] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: Some good news is that in the work that I've had the opportunity to do with educators around the country, I have been so encouraged to see that folks are just like, yes, this is hard, but I'm willing to do it. I'm nervous, but I'm going to do it anyway. And so just I just really feel so proud of the educators. And they don't often get-- they don't often get the mic pass to them, the folks who are doing this work, but just really so excited about that.

[00:38:25.10] That's happening with educators around the country. And not only that, but the impact that that's having on like the groups of parents and community members that I've gotten to meet with on school boards, school staff. I got to know to do some work with support staff like bus drivers and custodians and cafeteria workers and things like that. So for the educators who are leaning into that bravery, it's contagious. And I love--

[00:38:48.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Great news. Keep rippling. And Jenna, what's your good news?

[00:38:52.51] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: I think it's similar. I think I personally tend to get overwhelmed with the state of the world and feeling like it's hopeless. And that's the biggest enemy, in my opinion, is hopelessness. We have to believe that something's possible.

[00:39:06.47] So when I travel around the country and work with different schools, I am so grateful there are people thinking very strategically and making huge ripples, even though it may have some consequence, knowing that what's best for kids is what needs to happen. And so that just gives me so much hope and joy and faith in humanity, I guess, is when I'm out and seeing that there are people really doing hard things and making a difference.

[00:39:38.47] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you both so much. Thank you for being here and putting the humanness back in teaching and the joy and the love and the passion. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to this Teacher to Teacher podcast. I remind you to stay inspired, stay healthy, and don't forget to share your good news.

[00:40:00.23] Thanks, Jenna. Thanks Afrika. And listeners, I hope you can join us for our next episode, which is going to be titled It Is What It Is. Thanks again. Thanks, Jenna.

[00:40:13.19] JENNA CHANDLER-WARD: Thank you.

[00:40:14.47] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thanks, Afrika.

[00:40:16.09] AFRIKA AFENI MILLS: You're welcome. Thank you.

[00:40:17.72] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:40:18.43] INSTRUCTOR: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com. Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.