Engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators

Dilemmas

Guest(s): Bailey Wilcox and Vanessa Halling
Date: 05/14/2025
Run time: 45:39
Season 4, Episode 8

In Episode 8, Carol welcomes Bailey Wilcox & Vanessa Halling, who are a mentee and mentor pair! Their mentorship relationship started when Bailey was a student teacher in Vanessa’s classroom and has continued now that Bailey has her own classroom across the hall. Carol, Vanessa, and Bailey talk about the stance and supports that have made their mentor partnerships successful. Then they jump into common dilemmas, ranging from making content and curriculums relevant to students to classroom management challenges, and talk through how Bailey and Vanessa have worked on these in their own classrooms.

Interested in Podcast PD?
Check out Carol's blogpost Podcast PD: A Professional Learning Strategy to Earn District Credit for Podcast Listening!

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Episode Audio

[MUSIC PLAYING]

NARRATOR: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced

classroom teacher, university educator, founder of mentoringandaction.com, and author of four best selling

professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers

engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful

classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher

podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these

conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

LIZ GILDEA: Hello and welcome to the Teacher to Teacher podcast. I'm Liz Gildea, Senior Acquisitions Editor here at Corwin.

This season of the podcast focuses on mentoring in action. And today's episode is about dilemmas of practice.

Our guests are Bailey Wilcox and Vanessa Halling, who are mentee and mentor pair. Their mentorship

relationship started when Bailey was a student teacher in Vanessa's classroom, and has continued now that

Bailey has her own classroom across the hall. In 2024, Bailey was named Student Teacher of the Year and

Vanessa was named Outstanding Clinical Educator by the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.

I found this to be such a bright and hopeful conversation with these award-winning educators. Carol, Vanessa,

and Bailey talk about the stance and supports that have made their mentor partnerships successful. Then they

jump into common dilemmas, ranging from making content and curriculum relevant to students to classroom

management challenges. And they talk through how Bailey and Vanessa have worked on these in their own

classroom.

I love the wisdom that Bailey and Vanessa share about how they make their students feel seen, listened to, and

valued. This episode made me excited for a new generation of teachers. And I hope you'll find it as inspiring as I

did.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Hello, everyone! I am Carol Pelletier Radford. And I'm the host of theT eacher to Teacher podcast. And I'm so

excited to have a mentor and a novice teacher as my guest today.

And it's a special episode on dilemmas of practice. So we'll find out what dilemmas occur in teaching. And of

course, this season 4 is related to mentoring. So we will have some mentoring dilemmas, and then we'll have

some teaching dilemmas.

And I'm happy to introduce Bailey and Vanessa. Could you each introduce yourselves and we'll hear your voices.

And just for the listening audience to know, they're actually sitting side by side [LAUGHS] in they're school. So

this is exciting to have to see both of you. Bailey.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Hello. My name is Bailey Wilcox. I am a beginning teacher at Mallard Creek High School in CMS. And Vanessa

Halling is my mentor and was also my clinical educator when I was a student teacher.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

And tell us what CMS is for our listeners around the world.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

It's the Charlotte Mecklenburg School system in North Carolina.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Thank you. Vanessa, introduction, please.

VANESSA

HALLING:

Hi, I'm Vanessa. Halling and I have taught in Charlotte Mecklenburg schools for over 16 years. And again, I was

Bailey's clinical educator for a semester.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

All right. So you know each other. Now, my listeners know that I usually don't choose guests that know each

other, because we like to have a conversation that is authentic and different. But maybe in this conversation,

you'll find out some things about each other that you may not have shared yet. Even though you have worked

pretty closely in the relationship.

I'm going to start this off with Bailey. Tell me why you chose to become a teacher. It's really hard right now, and

you're in the first year of teaching.

You did your student teaching. You've had a good experience with Vanessa, and that's why you're here on this

podcast. But I'm curious to know, where did this begin?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Yes. So my mom was a kindergarten teacher in North Carolina for 28 years. And so I grew up with a teacher in

the house. I knew what the struggle was.

And I, for a little while, tried to avoid it. I went to college, and I tried out a couple of different majors. I wanted to

try some things and see what I liked, but I kind of knew deep down that teaching was where I wanted to end up.

I was always very good at it. I was always a teacher's assistant. And that's just where I knew I wanted to be. And

English is my happy place. So--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Oh, that's funny. So you have-- I think other listeners are nodding. I can hear them, like I tried not to be a

teacher. I tried to avoid it, [Laughs] but I couldn't help myself. And then I fell into it anyway.

My two sons are teachers. And they said, we're never going to be teachers because we see how hard you work.

The kids are not good all the time. They gave 10 reasons for why they wouldn't be teachers, and now they're

both teachers. My son's a high school AP Teacher.

And my other son is a video production teacher. So I'm kind of laughing that you tell that story. But why English?

Your mother taught kindergarten. So you didn't follow her exactly.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Not exactly, but English, I always thrived in English. That was always my favorite subject when I was a student in

middle and high school. And I had some great English teachers along the way that really inspired me and have

still inspired my practice today.

I love literature, I love to read. And I believe that there's a story out there for everybody. And if somebody

doesn't like to read, they just haven't found their story yet. So--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

I love that. I think that's a famous quote from somebody. I have it on a bookmark somewhere. "If you don't like to

read, you haven't found the right book."

So, who was one of your mentors that you admired-- I'm just curious-- to be an English teacher? was there

someone in college or high school? A name-- I like to put out the names of people.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I had an English teacher in high school. His name was Mr. Gustin. And he was awesome. He was fantastic.

We read No Country for Old Men. We read The Crucible. We read such cool stories. We read Carol Ann Duffy

poetry.

And he made it so accessible for us, but it was so relevant to the world. And I think I always loved to read. But

with his class specifically, I really found connection between the stories that I was reading and my real life and

the world outside of the classroom.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Wow. I love that. I hope our listeners are taking that in, because as a beginning teacher, as I'm listening to you,

I'm getting inspired that there's hope for our profession, that young people like you will look back at the mentors,

look back at their parents if they were teachers and not say, no, I'm not going to do this, and take that leap. And

even though we will have dilemmas that we'll talk about, there's a lot of good in what you just said.

So thank you, Bailey, for touching us in that way. All right. Vanessa, why did you choose to become a teacher?

What's your story?

VANESSA

HALLING:

Very similar to Bailey, books have always been a safe haven for me. I love them, I've always have.

I've grown up in a house where we might have been struggling to make ends meet. But if I wanted a book,

somehow, my mom always made that happen for me. And growing up, I was the kid who, while my friends were

playing superheroes on the playground, I was trying to get them to pretend to be my students so I could--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yeah. [LAUGHS] You wanted to boss them. Are you the oldest in your family?

VANESSA

HALLING:

I'm the youngest.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

You're the youngest! So you want it to be the oldest? You wanted to-- [LAUGHS]

VANESSA

HALLING:

It's a control thing.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

It is.

[LAUGHTER]

VANESSA

HALLING:

But I don't deny it. But boy, it just it never went away. And I found out that when I was in middle school, when I

was in high school, I was always that kid that would just-- I couldn't even help myself.

I wanted to help my friends with their stuff in class. I just wanted to. And teachers would let me 99% of the time,

because I enjoyed it so much.

And I love writing. I love the teaching of writing. I love all those things. I love seeing words on a page that

suddenly appear because they were once in your mind. It never gets old.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Oh, I love-- you're so inspiring. So, Bailey, I can see why you would want this to be your mentor as you step into

this role as a beginning English teacher. So how did the two of you connect with each other?

I know Bailey mentioned she student taught with you. So how did that happen? Talk about your University

experience and how you learned how to teach.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Yes. So it was-- I think it was fate.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Fate? OK, I love that.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I went to the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. And through my University, we have the Office of School

and Community Partnerships that places us in a district, in a school with a teacher, based on our preferences, on

where we would like to teach and our grade level and things like that. And so I was actually placed with Vanessa

the semester before last, because I was supposed to just observe her for a semester before I student taught in

her classroom so I could get to know her practices and get to know her as a person. So it would have been last

fall--

VANESSA

HALLING:

Yeah

BAILEY

WILCOX:

--where I we first met and I was in her classroom once a week every or the full day once a week. And I was just

observing her and her teaching. And we got to know each other. And then the following semester, I started

actually student teaching for her.

VANESSA

HALLING:

It's a valuable experience.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes. So many people are not having it now because they're entering the profession in alternate pathways

because we're losing teachers. And we're discovering that they just don't have that experience.

So they're learning to fly the plane as they're teaching. And it's really difficult. So compliments to you, Bailey, for

going through that program and being placed there. What was your impression, Vanessa, of Bailey's weekly and

then coming into the classroom? And tell us a little about the co-teaching and all of that student teaching

experience.

VANESSA

HALLING:

I've had a few student teachers before in my career, and what I loved about this situation was that observation

period. When she was with me for a whole semester and there was no pressure, she literally just got to come in

and sit and watch. But on my end, it really made me reflect on my practice before student teaching actually

began. It made me think ahead of time, what should I do? What can I do to even make myself better?

And we started having those crucial conversations the semester before her actual student teaching experience,

where she got to look in my classroom. She got to see the layout. She got to do some planning, ask some great

questions.

She also, without any pressure on her part, she got to see the good days and the not so good days. She got to see

lesson plans that may have been great on paper, but once they were being carried out, they could have been

improved with some reflection. And just because I've been teaching since the dawn of time still doesn't mean

that I can't improve. So being open to that possibility and open to that discussion is just a crucial experience.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

I love what you're saying, because what I want to underscore is the preparation of a mentor for hosting someone.

And you're really hosting in two different ways, that student teacher way. And now you're her mentor, and she

has her own classroom.

So that transition is a little bit different.

When I started my work in mentoring, I was, like you, Vanessa, a host teacher for a student teacher. And after I

had several-- and the university did not give me a lot of guidance. And that's what led to my first book that I

wrote decades ago, which was a guide for cooperating teachers who are hosting student teachers.

And I still feel that book has a place somewhere. It's out of print now because it was so long ago, where we, as

educators, need to reflect on our practice before bringing somebody in, even to observe. And I really appreciate

the way that you were reflective and said, how could I say this to her?

Because just because we are effective teachers, effective doesn't mean every day is a good day. Effective means

we can reflect, we can look back, we can come from a disposition of helping our students. All that is effective to

me. But it's that ability to talk about practice that we don't get unless we prepare our mentors in a very

systematic way.

And that's what led me to writing my own books, Mentoring in Action-- Guiding, Sharing, and Reflecting with

Novice Teachers because we're doing it together. We're not separate from that. And the novice has to be front

and center. So, Bailey, what did you just hear your mentor say that you'd like to react or respond to or an insight

you heard?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I think that something that Vanessa did for me that even in just the observation period, but especially going into

my student teaching that I have valued so much, is that she gave me the green light from the beginning. It was,

this is not just my space. This is your space.

This is your space to ask questions. You can try things that you want to try. She was always open to, if I had an

idea for something that I had seen her teach the semester before and I had thought about maybe I want to try to

do it this way, it was always, absolutely.

Let's try it out. Let's see how it goes. And then let's reflect together. That was--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Right.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

[INAUDIBLE] for me.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

And thank you for pointing that out. I think it's really important that the teachers there-- I was recently on

another podcast. I think it actually might have been with Kate, one of your colleagues and friends, who we were

talking about cooperating teachers who leave the room. [LAUGHS]

So the student teacher comes in, and old school used to be sink or swim. You just do it. And we'll talk about it

later. Vanessa, what do you think about that? Do you remember that?

VANESSA

HALLING:

I do. I remember actually being advised that that's what I should do back in the day.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Right.

VANESSA

HALLING:

I remember it wasn't always to the benefit of our students or the student teacher. It wasn't always a great

experience. And so very early on, I wanted to just make sure that we were on the same page as she started her

student teaching time with me.

I wanted to know, I'll stay. I'll always be present. When you feel like you want to have that space, I'll step aside

for a little bit, [INAUDIBLE] going to be very far.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Right. Exactly.

VANESSA

HALLING:

I was never more than a breath away or a text away. She always knew that I was going to be there to support

her. Early on, I just think it's always good for the clinical educator to be present and supportive.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes. So, how did we change that? Because that is not the way it was in the beginning, or it was inconsistent. Let's

just say some teachers thought that there was no common language for mentoring.

And that's what I was hopefully contributing with my books, because I taught for 21 years. I had been the host

teacher. That was what I was trying to transfer.

So, how did-- I made that decision personally? And then my goal is to share that with others. How did you make

that decision to not leave the room?

VANESSA

HALLING:

I just wanted her because I had had such a great experience with her during the observation period. We had

already gotten to know each other. I just wanted to be sure that she felt great about her first few weeks of being

in the classroom and actually going through the [INAUDIBLE] teaching those lessons.

I just wanted to make sure that she was supported. But, I do believe that it is one of those things where a clinical

educator should respect that student teacher as a professional. And she was doing such a good job on so many

levels that there came a point when I was like, OK, I think, I can step away for a little bit.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes. Yes.

VANESSA

HALLING:

[INAUDIBLE] because I wanted the kids to see her--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

VANESSA

HALLING:

--as a teacher.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

So now she is a teacher? Yes. So I love what you're saying because I think what you're saying, it's intuitive, but

now we're trying to make it a protocol that all cooperating teachers follow.

But you followed your guidance and watched her and so forth. But now she has her own classroom. So how is the

mentoring different?

VANESSA

HALLING:

It's definitely it's supportive. She teaches right across the hall from me.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

All right. You can still get over there. [LAUGHS]

VANESSA

HALLING:

So I mean, we talk all the time. I see her every day.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

VANESSA

HALLING:

[INAUDIBLE] every hour. We're constantly touching base with each other. She just knows that my classroom is

still her classroom. It's still an extension. She still belongs in there.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

So, Bailey, it's different for you, though. So what's the big difference? Let's just put the elephant in the room.

What's the biggest difference this year?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

It's I am in my classroom.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yeah, say it. Right. [LAUGHS]

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Has total agency in here. And it's--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

--it's different, but it's also I felt so in control of my classes when I was in her classroom that--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

[INAUDIBLE] different in the way of I am truly by myself in here. This is truly my classroom.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yeah, I know

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I was used to that feeling. By the end of the semester with Vanessa, I truly felt like those were my students. They

were my classes. I had agency in there. And so it was a great kind of gradual release with us in our student

teaching experience.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes. You two, I'm so glad I had you as a guest because you're modeling the-- I guess I don't want to say perfect,

but the perfect way in which we can prepare our teachers and the gentle release. And it's that metamorphosis.

It's that transformation. And it's that guidance, Vanessa, that you're giving, that you intuitively know about, but

that I want you to continue to share with other mentors. I am into the common language, and having everybody

at the school follow these protocols.

So it isn't just this, Vanessa is the best cooperating teacher and so and so isn't. You know what I mean. That's

how it was when I was teaching, is how beginning teachers talked about their opinions. And we have to change

that.

As we move forward to prepare hundreds and thousands of teachers in the next few years, we need to step up.

And I want the listeners to hear this beautiful model that the two of you are offering us. This is how it can be-- a

semester of observing, a student teaching, and the mentor, if it's at the same school, if it's at the same school,

being the same.

Is that going to work out for everybody? No, but the principles of it will. The principles. Any reaction to what I just

said? What do you think about that?

VANESSA

HALLING:

I think so much of what you're saying, and so much of what we did to-- I don't know. I don't want to dismiss it and

say that it just seemed like common sense. But I think something that should be addressed is that from the very

beginning, we had admin support in everything that we were doing.

So we had blessings from the powers that be saying, we like this. Do what you need to do. Continue this

relationship.

How can we support you? And I think that that's invaluable. Moving forward, if we were starting from a school

that where this relationship wasn't the norm, I would want to make sure that was understood from the get go.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes. Thank you for underscoring that, because that's what makes it happen. And these professional relationships

between university and school, that's how I started. It was a partnership.

We wanted to be a school where clusters of student teachers came. But to do that, the admin had to be involved,

the partnership, the supervision from the college, the students. But the cooperating teachers had to be educated

in a protocol so they didn't leave the room.

So it wasn't informal. It's a formalized practice of entering our profession. And I just love the way the two of you

have modeled it for us.

Bailey, what do you think about just the whole thing? We are going to get to dilemmas. But I just wanted-- this is

such a rich, important conversation. What do you think about your whole experience?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I am just so grateful for the support that I got, not just from Vanessa, but like she said, from our admin and also

from Kate Gilbert, from my university supervisor. That partnership that we were able to build between us and the

school and the university was so strong that I think we were bound to be successful. And slight humble brag, we

know that we were successful.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yay! You brag. You brag.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

[INAUDIBLE] an outstanding clinical educator of the year and student teacher of the year for UNC Charlotte this

year. So we--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

What? Could you just say that-- let's just step back and say that again. Go ahead. Say it again.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

So Vanessa won Outstanding Clinical Educator of the Year and I won Student Teacher of the Year for UNC

Charlotte for this school year.

VANESSA

HALLING:

And I think it has never happened at UN Charlotte.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Yeah. It's very-- I don't know if it's ever happened or if it's very rare that the two were student teacher clinical

educator pairings. They're usually--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Pairing. Oh, it's magic. So I think this is big magic. And I'm going to suggest the two of you to write a blog about

this.

Because it's not just the award. It's the carrying responsibility of the principles that you're talking about that

move this forward so others can do it. And you're saying it.

So here's the thing. We already said there are good days and bad days in teaching. There are a lot of things that

push people out of teaching and why people are leaving.

And I'm not sure where dilemmas fit, but dilemmas are these decisions that teachers have to make all day long

that might conflict with a belief that they have or a situation, and they cause stress? Because when you have to

make a decision on your feet and you don't really know what to do, if you're a beginner, then yes, you move

forward and you do something.

Bailey, just share, what dilemmas occurred to you when you were a student teaching or this year or anything?

What did dilemmas mean to you? And I just want to put dilemmas in the conversation.

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I think a dilemma for me that I've had to deal with, going from student teaching to being a licensed teacher is

going from the jump from English 4 to English 1. That was--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

BAILEY

WILCOX:

That was a pretty big step for me. I was a little bit worried about it at first of these kids, what if they're so

different? And the curriculum. And I just I spent this whole semester really diving into English 4 curriculum, and

now I'm going to English 1, and it's totally different.

And so that was a dilemma for me going into this semester. But I think, again, having Vanessa as that support

system and knowing that the relationship with the kids is what's really going to drive my instruction, and that

whether they're freshmen or seniors, my principles of being an educator remain the same. And my practices may

change a little bit but in general, I'm a teacher first, and they are students. And that it's going to be OK.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

And it's the content. So was your dilemma how to deliver the content because you had just learned how to deliver

that content to seniors? Was that the dilemma? Or was it, I don't know, something else?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I think the content was part of it, especially since with English 1, I have the option for a flex novel. So I can

choose from a bouquet of novels to teach them.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

You get to choose something. So that's a dilemma. Let's talk about that a little bit. So, how did you decide what

to choose?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I used guidance from my English 1 PLC in addition to I chose a novel that I had read previously when I was a

freshman in high school, and that I knew with my students I could make relevant to them. Because I looked back

at what do I know that I can make relevant to them?

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

What did you choose? What's the title? What's the novel?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

OK, Speak. And are you teaching it now? What's the reaction from the students?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I am. I'm teaching it now. We're about a third of the way through it. And they have loved it so far.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

OK, we like that. We like-- [LAUGHS] Vanessa, dilemmas? When I said dilemma, what did you think we'd be

talking about? What does it mean to you as a teacher, as a mentor, as a human?

[LAUGHTER]

VANESSA

HALLING:

I think something that I can talk about would definitely be appreciated among any of your veteran educator

listeners. I teach in a district that has adopted a very strict, mandated curriculum. I won't say the name, but I

mean, it's basically you will teach this. And you do this this way. This day, you will follow this pacing.

And we've done it now for a few years. And I can say that the struggle has certainly gotten easier. But one of the

things that proved to be a real stress factor over the first couple of years that it happened was realizing or

finding that perfect match between teaching what has been placed in front of me that I am required to teach a

curriculum, not a text, but a whole semester's course, and finding ways to make it still my own and put my own

flair in it, my own way to engage students and working with my PLC together so that we can find ways to make it

so that it's not just the kids opening up to a page, answering some questions every single day.

We really wanted to try to embellish it, enrich it, make it meaningful, make it relevant, make it current, and make

it something that the kids in our particular district and our school would truly benefit from. And it was tough. It

was tough, but--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

It is tough.

VANESSA

HALLING:

And Bailey inherited that ongoing process. She could see that you think that when you're a student teacher,

when you think you're in college, you think that you're going to be able to-- you'll have some things that are

required, but yet you'll still be able to kind of I'm going to teach this because I want to because kids will love it.

That's often the dream.

And maybe it used to be that way, but it's not so much anymore. So that kind of relationship that kind of dialogue

is, I think, going to be part of educators futures. And it's important that new teachers realize that so that they

can work with their cooperating teachers and their respective PLCs to try to find that mesh, that marriage

between what is mandated and what is your own.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes. Thank you. That's the biggest dilemma of all. Thank you for introducing it. Even when I was teaching, it was

the basal reader when I was at elementary.

And it was like Monday, you do vocabulary. Tuesday, you do the questions Wednesday-- and I remember what

you're saying and trying to find out, because I wanted to do TV shows and record albums with book titles and all

kinds of innovative things.

But I guess I probably can go on record saying I was a pretty subversive teacher. I'm not advocating that now.

But at the time, I felt that I could teach everything in the basal. And there was time for me to do my radio show

because teachers are creative.

And we can-- There are rules in school. We get it. We know what we're getting into. We chose teaching. We all

chose it because we want to boss people around. Not really, but we like that level of control.

But then when we lose some of it, Vanessa, you've said it beautifully. That is a major dilemma that incoming

teachers and current teachers are facing. And tell me one way you've been able to embellish or make relevant,

as both of you are saying, we're trying to engage our students.

The only way you can engage students is make it relevant, that they want to be engaged. Tell me something

you've done. I'm just curious.

VANESSA

HALLING:

I think many English teachers have a creative bone.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

VANESSA

HALLING:

I think we're all artists at heart in our own way.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

VANESSA

HALLING:

And I think one thing that we just instantly got on the same page with was we wanted to find ways where we

could provide our students options to, in their own way, show their mastery of a text. So with every unit that we

covered, there would usually be, whether it be like one assignment, maybe a quiz grade, or a project where

students would have options, where they could, using their own gifts--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

VANESSA

HALLING:

--their understanding and their connection to a text.

So we did that with works like Pygmalion, which was a novel where we were required to teach that novel. And we

just wanted to find ways to make it relevant, make it current, make it meaningful and applicable to students in

2024, '25. And so we worked with that.

We incorporated modern music and modern poetry and modern film. And we just found ways where they could

see the similarities and the archetypal characters. And the themes are still there. They're very much the same,

just the clothes are different. [LAUGHS]

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes.

VANESSA

HALLING:

But we tend not to change so much as human beings. We want the same things ultimately. So finding ways to

help students realize that makes it fun. And--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

Yes. And that's what they want. I remember seeing many Shakespeare plays that were modern day. And it's fun

to listen to and watch. And so kudos to you.

And to our listeners, this is not just about English. It's everything is having a mandated curriculum across the

spectrum. So we all need to just add our creative bones to it. I think that's a great, hopeful stance for us to take

so we can still be teachers and connect to our students, and add that sprinkle into every class. And like I did with

the basal, we still did the radio show at the end of the class and covered all the basis. [LAUGHS]

So I just want to put up another dilemma that novice teachers and mentors have talked about with me, about

classroom management always comes up. If I say, oh, what's your biggest thing? It's classroom management.

But for me, when I dive into classroom management, it has different boxes. It could be managing your paper. It

could be managing your classroom routine.

But when we say it, we think it's the students. We think classroom management, it's my students. It's how I react

with my students. So I like to always unpack that a little bit.

And I do want to talk about the student part of it, because the paper management is a thing to discuss. And the

way you set up your classroom is a management thing. And time-- when do you stay in correct papers?

But the fourth one is the one that most people think we're talking about is, how do you manage off-task students

and students who aren't doing homework? And it's a dilemma for beginning teachers, I think. I don't know,

Bailey. Is it a dilemma for you of how to relate to students who might not be doing everything you want them to

do?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

Yeah, I think it can definitely be a struggle. And I will say I have been very lucky so far to have very few of those

instances in my time in the classroom. But I think that that can quickly become an issue, especially if, like we

were just talking about, if the content is not relevant to students. And if they do not feel like they have a reason

to be actively engaged in what we're asking them to do, it can be so quick, especially when students-- like at our

school, students all have their own Chromebook that they are assigned to. So they have access to that

technology immediately that they can-- it's so easy for them to veer off task, if you are--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

So, what do you do, Bailey? I know you don't have a lot of them, but you must have one or two instances. And

maybe there's one that you and Vanessa have talked about. So, can you share one with us?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I think that something that I try to do as a proactive measure to avoid those situations, is that relationship

building piece. I think if you can form those foundations with them from the very beginning, from the get go,

where they understand that you have respect for them as a human being and for their belongings and for their

time, they will give you that same respect back. And I think that's something that we both were on the same

page with, especially with English 4 with the seniors, we talked about before the semester even started, they're

about to go out in the world.

And Mallard Creek and CMMS as a whole has a kind of mantra of enrolled, employed, or enlisted. That's how we

want our students to graduate. They're going to school, they're in the workforce, or they're enlisted in the

military.

And so especially with the seniors, they are about to leave us. They are about to go out in the world. And so we

wanted to give them that foundation of, I understand that your time is valuable. Just please give me respect to do

what I need you to do. We avoided a lot of that--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

You did? Vanessa, want to chime in or--

VANESSA

HALLING:

Well,

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

--share a story?

VANESSA

HALLING:

--your question has made me think of something that I have to brag about Bailey. I have to brag on her--

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

OK, let's brag.

VANESSA

HALLING:

No, she did something that is so seemingly simple, but she reminded me just how important it is. She did

something every single day that I can't say that I used to do, but now I do. She honestly started every single day

by honestly just saying, how are you? How is everybody?

And she would honestly give them one or two minutes and just see who would say something. And you would be

amazed the more she started doing it, people would say, I'm really burned out. I'm really tired.

And she would listen to them for a couple of minutes. And it wasn't wasted time because that relationship

happened so quickly and that trust for her happened so quickly. It was authentic. It was real. It was palpable.

And as an observer, I would just sit back sometimes and go, I think that sometimes, but I don't remember that

I've always said it. I would just jump in and say, hey. How y'all doing? I hope everybody's doing well. Let's get to

the warm up.

And she has changed me for the better in that respect, because now I do that every single day. I look at them,

and I'm like, how are y'all? And it's amazing that simple little move what that does.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

It does make a huge difference. And I can hear your mentee mentoring you. And that is what we always say is

that mentors will say to me, I got more out of this than I think I gave. [LAUGHS]

But your sentiment of her doing that and your willingness to do it yourself and to see the power of it is really

important. My first video that I ever produced-- I have a lot of videos on my website. I hope you'll take a look.

But the very first one I did was with a group of high school students. My son's a videographer. And I asked all the

students these questions off camera, and then we filmed them. And basically, it was the theme was how your

teacher can be a better teacher, basically.

Because I was teaching a course at the university, and I was going to show the video to my teachers and say, this

is what students are saying. They're not your students, but they are students. It was so powerful. I'll send it to

you.

And they said exactly what you just said. So many of them said, don't just jump into the content. Can you just ask

me-- I'm a human being. Can you just ask me, how was my weekend? How was my day?

And it has stayed with me for decades. And it's so relevant. And Bailey, why did you do that? Did you do it

because you were a student that wanted your teacher to do it? Why did you do that?

BAILEY

WILCOX:

I think going into student teaching, a lot of what my college courses prepared me for is classroom management.

And what do you do with students who are on their technology and they're not supposed to be? Or what do you

do with students who are disobedient in this way or the other?

But when I-- my philosophy about it always was they're people. They're kids. They want to know that you care

about them, just like we want to know that our students want to know about us.

It's fun when they ask you questions about yourself.

And so I think it was just something that-- especially with the seniors, because I'm young, and so I wanted to find

that fine line of being their teacher and being the authority figure in the room, but also being somebody that

they can talk to. And that is a part of their generation. Like, me and them are both Gen Z. We come from

[INAUDIBLE].

So wanting them to know that, yes, I am your teacher, and we have things to do. And I'm going to ask you to do

things and answer questions and read texts because this is English class, sorry, but also knowing that I do

genuinely want to know about them as people. And that was always something that I wanted to bring into the

classroom.

CAROL

PELLETIER

RADFORD:

We're going to end there, folks. It doesn't get any better than that. [LAUGHS] The voice of our next generation of

teachers, I'm so proud. Vanessa, we're handing it over to-- I feel safe and comfortable and inspired by the new

generation of teachers mentoring us and bringing forward all of these ideas.

I'm going to end the show with affirmations. I like to end each episode with some affirmations. The affirmations

I've chosen today for mentors who are listening, I collaborate and empower my novice teachers to solve daily

challenges. And for the novice teachers out there, and for all teachers, I am empowered to solve my own daily

challenges.

So to all our listeners, Bailey, Vanessa, you're awesome. I hope you learned something from each other new

today, even though you knew each other so well. To our listeners, I hope you'll tune in for episode 9, which you

two will want to hear is called student voices.

NARRATOR: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized

you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books

and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com. Please leave a review, and share this

podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share

teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

ANNOUNCER: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on

extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran

teacher, find ready-to-go teaching tools at corwin.com today.

Bailey Wilcox

I am a beginning teacher working at Mallard Creek High school. I teach English 1 and was a student teacher at this school last semester.

Vanessa Halling

I am an alumnus of Appalachian State University and have taught secondary English for over 16 years. I have taught English for grades 9-12, but have taught 12th grade and AP Literature and Composition for the last eight years.

Carol Pelletier Radford

Carol Pelletier Radford is the founder of Mentoring in Action, an organization dedicated to the success of novice teachers and their mentors. Before she established her own organization to support mentors and new teachers, she was a veteran elementary school teacher and a teacher preparation leader. Carol is the author of Corwin’s bestselling books Mentoring in Action: Guiding, Sharing, and Reflecting With Novice Teachers and The First Years Matter: Becoming an Effective Teacher.

Carol received her Education Doctorate from the Harvard University Graduate School of Education, where she focused her studies on mentoring and teacher leadership. She is also a certified yoga teacher who practices meditation and shares mindfulness strategies with educators through her online courses and website. Her podcast Teaching With Light features the stories of teachers and inspirational leaders. Her next passion project is the creation of a Teacher Legacy Network, where retired teachers can share their wisdom with the next generation of teachers.

You can learn more about Carol, find free resources, videos, meditations, courses, and all of her books at mentoringinaction.com/.

Twitter: @MentorinAction
Facebook: @MentoringinAction4Teachers
Instagram: @cpradford