Focus on the Human Data

Teacher to Teacher Podcast Series 1

[00:00:03.07] SPEAKER 1: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher, university educator, founder of Mentoring in Action.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom. In every episode, Carrol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy.

[00:00:34.88] The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.12] TORI BACHMAN: Hello, welcome to the Teacher to Teacher podcast, sharing our wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a Corwin editor and co-organizer of this podcast, which we've created for teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom that they can use in their classrooms. We believe we're all constantly learning, and we're learning together. To share their wisdom today, we have two fabulous teacher guests, Chase Orton and Mia Pumo.

[00:01:17.57] I'll introduce them both to you now. Chase Orton was a high school math Chase for 12 years. In 2012, he ventured out as an independent collaborator for districts and nonprofits, facilitating workshops, coaching teachers and writing math curriculum. As an accomplished facilitator of lesson study for K-12 math teachers, Chase currently invests his professional time partnering with districts that are interested in taking a teacher-centered, teacher-directed approach to professional development.

[00:01:48.59] Chase's book, The Imperfect and Unfinished Math Teacher, A Journey to Reclaim Control of our Professional Development, has been a key book in the Corwin math lineup since it was published in February of 2022. You can find Chase online at chaseorton.com. That's "c-h-a-s-e-o-r-t-o-n.com." or on social media "@mathgeek76."

[00:02:14.11] Hey, Chase. Thank you for being here with us.

[00:02:17.06] CHASE ORTON: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:19.51] TORI BACHMAN: And Mia Pumo is a program manager at Ed Direction, working across the country with education leaders to create environments where educators and students can thrive. Mia is a former elementary teacher and instructional coach, and she's the author of the book What Are You Craving? Designing the Life You Were Meant to Live, which is published by Balboa Press and available through Amazon and other retailers. You can find Mia online at eddirection.org. And that's spelled "e-d-direction.org." And Mia is on social media @mpeacepumo.

[00:02:56.74] Mia is also one of the educators who's featured in Carol's recent book, When I Started Teaching I wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom for Beginning Teachers. Hi, Mia. We're so happy that you're here.

[00:03:08.75] MIA PUMO: Hi, Tori. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:11.38] TORI BACHMAN: And I am going to turn this over to Carol now for this conversation that we've been looking forward to for quite a while.

[00:03:17.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Hi, everyone. It's nice to be here and to talk with you, Chase and Mia, and to actually highlight how important it is to have teacher wisdom and teacher-centered practices and perspectives highlighted on this Teacher to Teacher podcast. Now, I know in your introductions that you both have been in the classroom, and now you've dedicated your lives and careers to supporting teachers through professional development. So our listeners-- let's share with our listeners your journeys into teaching, why you decided to become teachers, and then how you shifted into this new commitment to actually helping teachers thrive in different ways, which took you out of the classroom.

[00:04:09.05] So Mia, let's start with you. Share your journey. Did you always want to become a teacher, which is story?

[00:04:17.80] MIA PUMO: I did not know that I wanted to be a teacher, but I think it was always in there deep down. But I majored in radio, television, and film in my undergraduate program, and I had a career in television advertising. And I was just not fulfilled, not happy, and I knew that was not something I wanted to do the rest of my life. So I started searching, and I had a friend who had become a teacher. I went to visit her classroom one day. Spent the day there and just fell in love, and was like, this is it. This is what I'm meant to do. So I got my master's in elementary education and took off and absolutely loved my work and just couldn't wait to get out of bed every morning to go to work. Even though my salary was cut in half, my joy was more than doubled. So totally the right decision for me.

[00:05:08.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And then you shifted. Then what drew you-- how did you follow your heart in a different direction to land you where you are now?

[00:05:17.47] MIA PUMO: Yeah. So I taught elementary school for 17 years, and I knew I was ready to do something else, but I wasn't sure exactly what that was. So again, I started searching, and that's when I found instructional coaching. I had my administrative degree. I had served as an administrator, and I just knew there was something else. I almost became a-- well, I did. I became a life coach. And I thought that was the direction I was going, and I wrote that book you mentioned in the intro.

[00:05:49.86] But something kept saying, you're supposed to work with educators. You're supposed to continue to work with teachers, and I fought it for a while. I was like, no, no, no, I'm moving in a different direction, but the universe has other plans. And so I-- everything I was learning in my life coaching work, I realized could also be used in education environments. And so I've learned how to weave all of that learning into my work with educators, and now that's what I do.

[00:06:20.03] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. And I know that you and I have met in person, and we've shared some similar interests. And I believe the mission that you just laid out to support teachers in being the best they can be in the classroom does-- it fills that gap that we're all looking for right now. And that is that wisdom of successful teachers, and you didn't leave because you were unhappy. It sounds like you left because you were searching for other ways to contribute.

[00:06:51.98] So, Chase, is your story similar to Mia's or very different or-- tell me, when did you decide to become a teacher?

[00:07:03.32] CHASE ORTON: My teaching journey began as a child. I was a military brat growing up, and my mom was in the Air Force and went to school all over the States and in Europe. And I just became really fascinated that there was more than one way to do school. And I went to two different high schools, and that really opened my eyes that there were better ways to do school and not better ways to do school. And when I went to college, I didn't know what I wanted to study.

[00:07:28.95] I was a good math student. I took AP calculus. I took a calculus course, but that was-- I got tired of math, but I ended up tutoring math in college and falling in love with that. And I was a religion minor and an education minor, and I became aware really wrapped up in the ideas of Paolo Freire and the ideas that there are models of education that are press and models of education that can liberate, and I could see how that related to the math classroom and that there was a way to do math class that really empowered people and a way to do math class that really diminished people.

[00:08:06.00] And so I was interested by that problem. And so I went into teaching and didn't have my credentials. So I started at a private boarding school in Connecticut. Did outdoor ad and coach basketball, and house parented in addition to teaching full-time math. And it was a really great place to start my career, but ended-- and ended up after five years there moving to California and teaching public school in Los Angeles high school, getting my teaching credential. And after 12 years, I wanted-- I came back to my big questions of why are some schools better than others and what can we do to create some change.

[00:08:44.34] And I was feeling very trapped where I was at as a math teacher and didn't-- it didn't seem like it was my path anymore. I wanted to stay involved in math education. I was deeply passionate about math class, but I wanted to get out and see other teachers and other math classrooms. I've always been deeply grounded in the belief that teaching is a craft that we learn best through each other, and I wanted to work with other teachers and gain their stories and just shift my problem and practice, and that's led me the journey here to y'all today. Lots of little chapters along the way but--

[00:09:21.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. Coming to us from a hotspot in Oregon on your phone and your car. So we're very glad that you're on the road and you're sharing your passion with teachers. I just-- so one thing that always comes up for me as a teacher and student is math. So it's interesting that you're a math teacher because math is a subject that does diminish a lot of people because of the way it's taught.

[00:09:54.32] And I can remember always being afraid in my math class that I had to get it right like it always was about a right answer. And I'm intrigued by the way you're talking about math and talking about it really like in a different way. Could you just say a little bit more about what do you mean about being empowered or making math be that why you're choosing to help teachers with math content to include more kids instead of diminished? What does that mean?

[00:10:34.53] CHASE ORTON: Yeah. I think that there's two purposes to math class that I think that we all can agree on. The first is that we want students to learn more math content, and the second one is about a mathematical disposition, their math story, things like perseverance, collaboration, willingness to take risk, finding joy with mathematics, that those things are really important too and that's related around the human data, the process that says that students are engaged. And so I think it's a lot about really focusing on the second half for teachers about focusing on that human data and that energy in the room, not so much about--

[00:11:14.40] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So the teaching. So the teaching of it. So as the listeners are listening in 'cause they might not be teaching math, what you're talking about is the pedagogy and how anyone listening as a teacher can benefit from the wisdom that you're going to share with us today. So thank you for clarifying that. So those are your journeys. I'd like each of you to take a moment to think of a story or an incident or a situation in your classrooms or when you were teaching 'cause I know you're doing more professional work now that changed you as a teacher or gave you an insight that has made you into who you are today, like significantly helped you grow.

[00:12:06.63] It might be a challenge. It might be something that was really successful, but it was empowering, and it has-- it's that story that has stayed with you for all these years. So Mia, what is it? Tell us that hidden wisdom.

[00:12:25.59] MIA PUMO: So, first of all, I'll say that my first job teaching was at a very high-needs school in a very rough area. And I had an incredible team. And I didn't know how blessed I was at the time. I thought all teams and all schools operated this way, but extremely supportive. Just shared everything, and we just naturally got together every day after school, and we talked about our students. And we shared in the responsibility of teaching all the students across the grade level.

[00:13:00.30] It wasn't like I have my class and you have yours. So that was an incredible experience. And then a few years later, when I got into the-- teaching the upper grades and into all of the integrated testing, one day my students were taking the big end-of-year test, and they had their scrap paper, and they could only do something with their scrap paper when they were finished. They weren't allowed to read. They weren't allowed to talk. You all know the drill.

[00:13:31.30] So I'm walking around the room, and I'm noticing all of these incredible creations that they're doing. Some were doing origami. Some-- one was writing-- like creating a play, a skit, a storyboard. One was designing her bedroom.

[00:13:51.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my God. All on these little papers?

[00:13:54.00] MIA PUMO: Yes, and it just hit me all of a sudden, like these kids are so talented. And I know that some of them are going to be very upset because of the result they're going to get on this particular test today, but I want them to see their talents, and that's how I started to see my students was these-- like everyone has this talent, and I just have to discover it, and then and then help them to realize what they have and that it's something wonderful to offer and everybody doesn't have to be great at all of the same things.

[00:14:29.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So the talent emerged, and then you actually just noticed. And it was almost like accidental.

[00:14:37.25] MIA PUMO: It was.

[00:14:38.04] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: How has that changed the way you have moved forward with students and with teachers? So do you do it intentionally now because of that, or what?

[00:14:49.57] MIA PUMO: Absolutely. Yeah, because it made me realize that everyone has hidden gifts and talents. Sometimes, they're more obvious than others, but whether I'm working with students or whether I'm working with adults, it's about discovering those, and it's about asking the right questions to bring those out. It's about helping people discover their own strengths.

[00:15:09.25] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So how do you do that in a profession-- so you're working now in that professional career, like what's a way that you help a teacher discover their talent? So if people are listening to this now, and they're like, oh, I don't know. What's my talent? I don't know. How do you help them do that?

[00:15:27.95] MIA PUMO: That's a great point, and that's one of the things I love about coaching. So I do a lot of coaching. And one of the-- and I train coaches. And one of the things I tell them is that when people are in your classroom, it's important to point out the things that are going well. We're not just looking for gaps and what's missing but point out-- because teachers don't realize, especially teachers maybe who haven't been doing it that long, that they are doing some incredible things, and they think everybody's doing that. They think it just comes naturally, and it doesn't.

[00:15:56.62] So it's important to point those things out. And then the other thing is just it's important to build those authentic relationships and ask the tough questions to help people reflect, to help people dig deep inside of themselves to discover some of those things and to pay attention to their strengths and how they bring those strengths to their profession.

[00:16:21.10] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it. Love it. So I would say you're not so hidden talent is bringing the hidden talents out of others. So you're intentionally doing that. I love that. So thank you. Chase, what's going on with you? What's something significant that you remember when you look back at your 12 years in the classroom that changed the way you looked at yourself as an educator or just moved forward? What happened?

[00:16:53.75] CHASE ORTON: I think I was in my seventh year of teaching. I was working with a student named Rudy and the story is a big feature in my book. And Rudy was a senior taking algebra 2 for the second time, and he had failed at his junior year. In the fall term, he would come to after school for extra help and retake his exams and hustle his way through and pass fall term, but spring term was a different story, and he fell really far behind, and he had a senior thesis to do, and all graduates from his school had to be college eligible in California that meant earning a passing grade in algebra 2. And he just procrastinated and started to come a couple weeks left of school, and deadlines came and went for senior grades, and I failed him.

[00:17:48.23] And he didn't-- I failed him. And I sat with that decision for a really long time. And it really broke me, not specifically because of Rudy. It broke me because I really felt like I was in a position in this machinery of math education that would reward students for mimicry in the math classroom.

[00:18:12.88] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that's when you started to make the decision to actually improve and shift and change by helping teachers. Did that decision come around then, or you stayed for five more years?

[00:18:26.69] CHASE ORTON: Yeah, yeah. I stayed. I have made terrible financial decisions in my life and moved around a lot. And if you move around a lot as a teacher, you're of acing yourself out of retirement and the few benefits financially that can come with teaching. So don't take my advice.

[00:18:47.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK. OK.

[00:18:48.25] CHASE ORTON: Two grand of heart. But I taught-- and I needed to finish to complete my credential, and I got my career credential, and after-- and I completed bits and then-- I wanted to keep teaching. I didn't want to work back in private school. I didn't want to work for the socioeconomic elite, but I also didn't want to participate in the broken math education system, particularly high school mathematics. Common Core was coming out. That was changing nothing about high school math. I was excited about the math practices, but nothing was getting fixed, nor do I think the new framework is going to fix anything when it comes to high school mathematics.

[00:19:22.52] And I also have been in enough middle school math classrooms to know that there's a special place in heaven for all middle school math teachers.

[00:19:31.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, I know.

[00:19:32.33] CHASE ORTON: It's not in my skill set--

[00:19:33.65] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All middle school teachers, too. All areas--

[00:19:36.62] CHASE ORTON: Oh, my gosh, dude. Yeah.

[00:19:38.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All areas.

[00:19:38.60] CHASE ORTON: Totally. And so and I was like, well, where am I going to go? Well, and I didn't want to leave my community in LA, and so-- yeah, I just cut the thread of a regular paycheck, and it was trust that I'd figure it out. And like me, I found instructional coaching and nonprofits that were supporting LA unified and doing some math curriculum writing and then eventually getting involved in doing workshops and lesson study and feeling really nourished by that and still being in math classrooms and being in different math classrooms.

[00:20:09.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What's your message from the story--

[00:20:12.16] CHASE ORTON: My message--

[00:20:12.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What's the big message that we want to--

[00:20:14.69] CHASE ORTON: As teachers-- as any teacher out there be very careful about the ways in which we blame students for where they're at. But it is our job to do something about it where they're at and meeting them where they're at, which may mean not doing the mandates of our job but really advocating for the needs of our students.

[00:20:31.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: For the needs. Thank you. Thank you for that story. Thank you. I'm going to shift a bit to a question that all our listeners really appreciate some practical tip advice, something to do in the classroom that they can take away from this podcast today that they could actually do. And classroom management is a very broad term. So as you both listen to that, it might be how you managed paper or how you manage behavior, or routines, or rituals, or it's like the little magic bullet tip that you use that you loved, and you did it, and it worked. Mia, what did you do?

[00:21:16.10] MIA PUMO: I'm going to say number one relationships, relationships, relationships, get to know your students. When they feel truly respected and valued, they will want to please you a bit more. Now, of course, I'm from the elementary world, but I'm talking about 5, 6, 7-years-old as well deserve to be treated--

[00:21:41.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So what's a relationship thing I could do? Like, what's a practical thing that beginning teachers listening, and she's like, OK. Yeah, yeah, I do want to do that, but what do I do to build relationship like?

[00:21:57.06] MIA PUMO: So what I did was I created a rotation where I would sit with different students at lunch at the beginning of the year. And so I could just chat with them, and it was very low-key and low stakes, and they were relaxed. And on the playground, too, sometimes I would just chit-chat with different students. So those downtimes, I would take time to get to know them, always sent the inventory home for the parents to try to find out more, and then-- and just asking the children about themselves and allowing them, especially the little children who love to tell their stories, allowing them some of that time to share, to express themselves--

[00:22:40.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Share their story. Yeah.

[00:22:40.35] MIA PUMO: During morning meeting, I would have times where they could share and tell their stories from home. And I wanted them to feel valuable in the classroom.

[00:22:50.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that.

[00:22:50.85] CHASE ORTON: I mean, I agree with Mia 100%. I have had classrooms that have been gut punches where every day I show up, and if I can get six out of the 30 students to spend 15 minutes doing mathematics, that was a success for me. And it was incredibly, incredibly demoralizing and frustrating, and literally would show up and spend 55 minutes getting punched in the gut and then have to go on with my day. And I remember second period-- it was first period, and on Fridays at the end of first period was the most relieved I felt because I didn't have to do it again.

[00:23:23.91] So starting to work-- remember, I'm working with high school students. But I would start to interview that class specifically but all my students about their week in math class.

[00:23:34.68] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK.

[00:23:35.52] CHASE ORTON: About their experience, I would ask them are there ever a time when you felt like I was short with you or rude with you. I would invite do I owe anybody an apology in this classroom? Do you owe anybody else an apology in this classroom. Opportunities to clear the air. And doing this where I'm not standing in front of the room, and they're sitting in chairs 'cause now I'm talking down to them and exerting my authority over them.

[00:23:59.38] But I-- at some point, I think the mistakes that young teachers make that are listening out there is that we think that classroom management is about exercising your authority, right? And it is not about power and authority. You have to earn that. And like Mia is talking about with relationships, like it is not what you tell them. It's what you show them. And so I'm saying if you're having problems with classroom management, ask the students from their perspective, and make sure that the story you're telling yourself is true. Get in other teachers' classrooms, watch how they do classroom management, and watch how their classroom management issues are different than yours.

[00:24:38.79] And if you still have some students that you can't get to focus, and this presumes you're not a self-contained classroom like an elementary school teacher, but watch those students in other classrooms where they are focused, and you'll see what you need to see to realize that it's not about the kid. It's about you and whatever you're doing in that classroom that's not working for them. And so I think classroom management sometimes we fall into blaming the kid, and we need--

[00:25:06.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: We'll get to that. So that's an interesting thing that comes back to us and our wisdom and the way in which we relate. And it's so interesting 'cause you both-- you're both spectrums we've got the elementary and the high school, and it's the same message of relationships and listening and moving forward in that way. So let's talk about how you survived and thrived and took care of yourselves. Maybe now because you were both in the classroom putting 100% in, but we need to focus on more. Well, being now, that's what I'm learning as I work with more teachers.

[00:25:47.15] It isn't just the content. It isn't just the pedagogy. It's finding that balance in our lives. So we need to model it as educators. So what do you do, Mia to model or to take care of yourself so that you can keep doing the work you're doing with educators across the country?

[00:26:06.68] MIA PUMO: Yeah, great question. And this is certainly something that has evolved over time for me. I can admit I was not great at this when I started teaching as a lot of teachers. I was working all the time. It was not only my job. It was my passion. It was my hobby. It was everything. But you will burn out that way.

[00:26:26.42] So I had to learn over time how to take care of myself. So I would say the first thing I did was develop a morning routine. So yes, I already had to get up super early and be at work by 7 AM or before, but those extra 20 or 30 minutes were completely worth it to center myself. And, you know, I'm not going to say you have to do A, B, and C. It doesn't really matter. It's very personal what you do.

[00:26:53.95] It might be meditation. It might be prayer. It might be just sitting quietly. It might be planning the day in your head. It might be movement. It might be jogging, walking, yoga, whatever. But having something that's just for you, yes, you have to get up before sometimes, your own children or your family members, but it's worth it in the end.

[00:27:17.03] And-- but the other thing before I started doing that even is I did things for myself, but I had to bring my students right along with me because, as an elementary teacher, I didn't have breaks. I couldn't just take breaks and walk away and have those moments to myself. So I created them in my schedule throughout the day where we would have a dance break, or we would walk outside, or we would just have a brain break and do something fun. And now that I've been doing the work I'm doing now for so many years, I understand that is good for all humans, children, and adults is like we all need frequent breaks to be productive and to thrive in any kind of work or school environment.

[00:28:03.47] If I could redesign schools, I would definitely have more breaks and free time recess, whatever you want to call it, in middle and high school as well. They need it desperately.

[00:28:14.63] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:28:15.38] MIA PUMO: Not just the elementary students that need to get outside and run around. So but-- yeah, I would schedule. I had quiet time. I didn't call it meditation or prayer or anything controversial, but I had quiet time built in for the day. I would walk around and just say positive affirmations over my students and just spend that time praising them. So they were hearing great things about themselves, and they could just have a little bit of downtime. But I just created those in my daily schedule, and I've continued to build things into my personal life that involve getting quiet and moving that have served me well.

[00:28:54.11] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. I think what you're saying is so important for our listeners because it is that intentional preparation of the start of the day that I do think sets us up. But what you're saying that I haven't heard anybody else say in the same way is that integration throughout the day of short modeling pause this is if you will that, just allow us to center ourselves, but we're doing it with our students as well. And they don't have to be that long. They can be like a minute.

[00:29:27.54] And I notice that it really makes a difference. I'm a certified yoga teacher, and I learned so much from the yoga and the mindfulness practices. And you're reminding me as you're talking about it that we do as teachers need to integrate it into our day with our students. So, Chase how does this resonate with you? Like how do you take care of yourself, and what did you hear Mia say that makes sense to you, too?

[00:29:58.84] CHASE ORTON: Yeah. I love the need to take breaks to take quiet moments. I think it's really important for us to take deep breaths and pause, particularly in our day, to allow our emotions to get-- there's-- I forget the author, but to allow our emotions to get so far ahead that we become detached from them meaning that we talk about how our emotions get ahead of ourselves, and we start to act impulsively, and we're feeling frustrated, and we're acting from an emotional space which isn't always productive. And so the idea of realizing that if you just wait long enough, whatever anger and frustration that you're feeling will disappear, particularly if you sit with it and just breathe through it.

[00:30:42.80] And I think that there's value in sitting with it for a little bit because you don't need to act on it. You can let it go and be OK. And I think-- I agree with all the things that Mia is saying, I bet-- I mean, we can go online and look at what keeps us mentally healthy and exercise, and eating right, and getting good sleep, and taking breaks is really important. I think-- perhaps what I would add as a teacher spend your breaks growing some flesh. And that's coming from advice from a former boss about teaching whittles you down to the bone the school year, right?

[00:31:26.62] All the needs and picking at you and picking at you and picking at you. And so it was time to grow some flesh like on your teacher soul, you know? Like, get fat a little bit like just on your-- on-- so because it's going to be some lean times when you come back into the school year. And so you're going to need that. And so I think it's really important to engage a meaningful learning while you're on break but to give yourself some time away from having to make decisions, having to work with young people, and really allowing that opportunity for recovery to happen, or you're not going to have the full enough tank that you need--

[00:32:09.61] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That refresher. I like what you're saying about decisions. I just recently read something somewhere, and it was called decision fatigue. And I felt like I was in it a few weeks ago, and I was like, wow, I never really thought about it that way. It's just like having to make multiple decisions, and teachers make about 1,500 decisions a day. And I never thought of it as that fatigue. So thank you for reminding us to just kind of in that pause where we're building up. We're building up refreshing nourishing.

[00:32:49.19] Thank you both. As we wind down, I just want to ask a couple closing questions. One is I want-- I want to give each of you a chance to just say a couple of things about your books. So, Mia, you have your own published book with Balboa, and then you are a guest-- a guest author in my book. So I want you to say a little bit about each of those publishing experiences for you and why-- what's your message there for our listeners?

[00:33:20.01] MIA PUMO: I will say that the book that I wrote was a labor of love. I never really set out to be an author. It wasn't like a dream I had, like I want to write a book. But when I started working with humans, as we all do, and learning more about really getting curious about how people thrive. I wanted to get out of survival mode, and I wanted to get into a place where I was thriving. So I started learning about that and studying it and just everything I could find to get my hands on and trying different things in my own life.

[00:33:55.02] And when I found something that worked, then I just wanted to share it because I am a teacher, and I always want to teach. So when I find something amazing, I want to share it with the world. And that's really what the book I wrote was about. So, What Are You Craving is really about people who have-- maybe you're in-- we'll call it the middle of your life. I don't know. I'll say over 30, and you've realized that the decisions you've made up to this point have gotten you to this place, and it's not where you want to be, but you feel stuck.

[00:34:27.64] Because, well, I made all these decisions in my 20s, and now I have-- I'm stuck with them, and I just want people to understand that is not the case that we can change our trajectory at any point. It's not easy, but it is possible. And I do want to say I wrote that book with my best friend from elementary school, who's an attorney by day but a foodie at heart, and that's how we came up with the metaphor of planning and designing the perfect meal and using those steps to talk about how you can really think through and design the life that you're craving and live it and--

[00:35:05.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. I love that book. It's such-- and it has recipes in it, too.

[00:35:10.39] MIA PUMO: And it has recipes.

[00:35:11.41] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It has recipes, and it's like, what are you craving? And it makes me hungry when I think of that book.

[00:35:16.76] MIA PUMO: But it's very practical as well.

[00:35:19.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, it is practical. It's a sweet. It's very sweet. I love it. I love it.

[00:35:24.05] MIA PUMO: And then I'll just say that it's just such an honor to be included in your book, When I Started Teaching I wish I Had Known because, again, my heart is with teachers and to always support teachers. And so now, I'm just so blessed, and the work that I do that, I can take what I've learned about creating a life that's thriving, and I can help teachers understand how to implement those ideas into their work life as a teacher because, as you all know, teaching is a very hard job.

[00:35:58.64] And we are suffering from a lot of burnout, and a lot of people are leaving the profession. So I want to help people learn how they can thrive and stay in this wonderful profession that we need so badly.

[00:36:11.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, Mia. And it's an honor to have you part of that one of the 36 teachers. All right. Chase, what can people expect-- say your title again for your book that's published by Corwin and what can people expect? Is it just for math teachers? Could another teacher read it? Tell us what to expect.

[00:36:31.93] CHASE ORTON: I think it's for all of us. Teachers and non teachers alike is about--

[00:36:35.21] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK.

[00:36:36.01] CHASE ORTON: Being an imperfect human being and remaining unfinished and seeking ways to continue to grow. And a lot of themes about what Mia is talking about-- like about how can we support each other to become the thriving teachers that we want to become. The subtitle of the book-- so it's The Imperfect Unfinished Math Teacher, and it outlines a journey for-- it's a teacher-centered, teacher-directed book to take control and seize control over their own professional development and their own culture of professional learning.

[00:37:07.21] And there's so much that we get wrong with professional development positioning teachers as consumers rather than producers of professional knowledge. It diminishes our identity, robs us of our agency. We work in a system of silos that rob us of the relationships, and the community and the love that we need as human beings to thrive. And it also working in silos, robs us of the perspective, the vantage that we need to grow and become self-directed learners. And we work-- at least in math education in a really myopic an asinine approach to like standardized testing and measuring our growth with standardized test scores that leave us really unnourished as teachers.

[00:37:50.42] And so I wrote this book for two reasons. One I'm concerned about the overall health and well-being of the teaching profession the teaching vitality, particularly as it relates to math teachers are worried that-- too many of us are worrying-- coming to the conclusion that teaching math class just isn't worth it given the system that we work in and that scares me quite a bit. And I'm also worried about our cultural math story that so many people don't have a positive relationship with mathematics because math class didn't work for them, and I want to create a way to really empower teachers to make some changes there.

[00:38:25.17] And really, it comes down to four quick things, which is take ownership over your own learning. The PD you're going to get is always going to underperform. Even the professional development I give is not going to get them to where they need to go. But they need to take ownership over that and to focus on what you value. That's the second one. The third one is being in each other's classrooms. It is-- it blows my mind how alien it is in our culture of professionalism that teachers aren't in each other's classrooms.

[00:38:54.81] I would never want to get on an airplane with a pilot that never watch another pilot teach, at least for thousands of hours. Same is true for a dentist. Same is true for a doctor. Same is true for a welder or a plumber. You know, like-- and we, as teachers, we go through our teacher credentialing program. Mia brought this up earlier like maybe somebody comes in and gives us feedback on a walk-through tool that doesn't really help us grow or makes it squeaks us out like we don't know like why are you here, and am I going to get evaluated 'cause it's such a foreign thing.

[00:39:23.20] And we need to be in each other's classrooms as much as possible. I work with leaders about how we can create that opportunity as economically as possible. But I tell teachers the best use of your professional time is to spend time in another classroom watching other teachers teach. You will see whatever it is you need to see to change your mind. To go back to your point, Carol, about I used to believe, but now I do go in a math classroom. You'll walk out and be like, whoa, I used to think this, and you won't-- and you might be like, but now I wonder if, right?

[00:39:56.19] And this we get to the last one about it is too hard to be a teacher and go alone. To be an expert teacher, you have to have colleagues, and if they're not on your site with the people that you work with, you got to find them online. And I try to build a lot of community online. And I want to create a sense of belonging, particularly for those teachers that are teaching in rural places and they're in silos. And I want them to know that they're not alone. That all of us are imperfect. None of us are crushing it in math class, and that good teachers are remaining unfinished in their thinking and in their practice, and in their identity.

[00:40:35.23] And so it's a book to help us really rise up against the status quo of a cultural professional development that hasn't worked against us so that we can feel better about the job that we do, right? This job is too hard not to be in love with it. And so I want more teachers to have that love, and that's why I wrote this book. But you don't even need to buy the book, Carol, 'cause I'm making free episodes on YouTube.

[00:40:58.74] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah.

[00:40:59.31] CHASE ORTON: And I've got the first four-- I've got the first four online and-- 15 to 20 minutes meant to get them on a commute. And they'll make the book better. It's not a book on tape. It's a companion, but each episode mirrors a chapter. And I'm stoked about it. I'm at Imperfect Unfinished on YouTube. Search for that. Search for Chase Orton. You'll find me.

[00:41:24.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: We'll do it. We'll do it.

[00:41:26.64] CHASE ORTON: So, yeah.

[00:41:27.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I can hear the passion in your voice. What I want to emphasize comes back to what Mia said in the beginning, which was share. Like she was on a team, and she didn't know how important that team was. It was a blessing. And then we find ourselves sometimes on teams that aren't as cooperative. So our message is create a team. We can find a team that we are wise.

[00:41:56.16] You two have shared from your hearts authentically the raw real teacher talk teacher to teacher, and I hope our listeners have taken away the message that they need to enhance their own practice. So let's close with a wise statement. I used to think this about teaching education whatever, and now I think this to leave our listeners with some inspiration from your hearts and minds. Mia, what did-- what did you use to think, and what do you think now?

[00:42:31.66] MIA PUMO: I'm just going to double down on something that Chase said, and that's visit each other's classrooms because I used to think that observations and visiting classrooms was about seeing the perfect lesson. And now I believe that it's really about learning from each other. So I just want to say visit other classrooms as much as you can. As a learner, be open to having people in your classroom.

[00:42:59.48] Give each other feedback. Be open to feedback. It's the only way we grow and learn, and yeah, I just agree 100% with Chase that that is the best way to have professional growth and development.

[00:43:12.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it. All right. Chase, last word. I used to think, and now I think.

[00:43:16.67] CHASE ORTON: I used to think that the best way to do a math lesson was through synchronicity, keeping all my kids together, everybody get this step ready to take a step forward. Let's do this one and marching them along. And I would pride myself on leading the kids through like I was leading them through a maze, and how many kids came out the other side and feel good about myself. And I realized that kids don't learn math that way. But even if they make it through the maze-- even if they make it through the maze they're like, oh, we went through a maze. Well, I didn't learn anything. And I'd be like, you're here. How did you get here?

[00:43:46.61] So I've learned that that class should be that there are ways of doing math class that are asynchronous and ways to really positioning students so they're working each together rather than all marching along in unison. And so I've been thinking a lot about that actually really recently about how can we do better to make math class an asynchronous learning experience as much as possible so we can position more students as capable while also navigating the realities of being teachers but focusing on getting two students to all-- to the same time rather than the same place.

[00:44:25.70] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it. Love it.

[00:44:26.90] CHASE ORTON: Think a lot about that. Well,

[00:44:28.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: This has been quite a conversation. Thank you so much, both of you, for sharing your journeys into teaching, and where you are now, still helping educators and sharing your wisdom. So, Tori, I'm going to let you have the last word summarizing your takeaways from this podcast.

[00:44:52.38] TORI BACHMAN: Sure. Thanks.

[00:44:53.18] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What did you learn? What did you learn?

[00:44:55.16] TORI BACHMAN: I learned a ton. You know what? I'm really enjoying about these conversations is that we've paired up two educators who didn't know each other prior to this conversation. And it's really just been a fun experience and really interesting experience to see all these ways where you all are in agreement and are doing things very similarly and maybe have come at it from different approaches. But what really came out of this conversation for me was something Chase said early on focus on the human data.

[00:45:29.42] That seems to be something that you both feel really passionate about. And whether it's focusing on the human data of the kids in front of you or focusing on the human data of the teachers around you that you work with or that you have to find online in another way, that seems to be like really at the heart of what you both do. Chase, you said something that I wrote down teaching as a craft. We learn best from each other. I might have muddled that a little bit, but I think that was the gist.

[00:46:01.85] It was--

[00:46:02.32] CHASE ORTON: That's it.

[00:46:02.63] TORI BACHMAN: And I think that's something that you both feel really strongly about. And it's-- I think that's an important thing for teachers at all experience levels to hang on to that. We really do need each other in this field. And Mia, you talked about imperfection and Chase. That's a running theme in your book and your work, and really not only being open to imperfection but embracing it and like realizing that this is a journey and feedback is important and learning from one another is important. Learning from the kids in front of you is important.

[00:46:42.78] The relationship focus in terms of classroom management. I think Chase, you said some really lovely things that restorative practice around classroom management and really looking at yourself instead of blaming kids that came up a few times in things that you said across the hour. And I think that's a really important takeaway for all of us for educators at all levels. So thank you both. This has really been interesting. And I just really enjoy seeing how your two very different journeys match up in these really beautiful ways. So thank you. I appreciate you being here.

[00:47:28.35] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you, both. Thank you.

[00:47:31.73] SPEAKER 1: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher To Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com. Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher To Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

[00:48:02.08] SPEAKER 2: Come explore Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran teacher, find ready-to-go teaching tools at corwin.com today.