It Is What It Is

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[00:00:03.10] SPEAKER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher, university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four bestselling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.99] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Welcome to season 3 of the Teacher to Teacher podcast. I am your host, Carol Pelletier Radford, and I'm so happy to be part of this conversation with two very experienced educators today. And the theme for season 3 is based on the book that I wrote titled, Teaching with Light, Ten Lessons for Finding Wisdom, Balance, and Inspiration.

[00:01:17.68] Each of the 10 episodes for this season mirror the 10 lessons that are in the book. And today's episode is titled, It Is What It Is, and it's lesson 6.

[00:01:31.27] Now, what I want to say about this, so I wrote the book. I have all the lessons. This was the most challenging chapter for me to write. In fact, I think I wrote it last because I didn't want to be vulnerable about the story that I was going to share of when I actually learned the lesson that it is what it is. [LAUGHS]

[00:01:57.73] So for our listeners, I won't tell the whole story. But in the notes, you can listen to me share my story.

[00:02:06.67] The mantra in the chapter is called, "I accept the things I cannot change." And the story that I write about is, "I know I am right." [LAUGHS] And how I shifted from knowing that I was right and it wasn't my fault to understanding what it is what it is and how that understanding of that lesson could actually move me forward as an educator to just be more compassionate with myself and others.

[00:02:44.25] So I'm going to turn this over and welcome in my two guests, Kristen and Lester, today and have them introduce themselves first. And then we're going to dive into this it is what it is conversation. So, Kristen, welcome. Who are you? What are you doing? What did you do? How do you relate to teachers?

[00:03:05.69] KRISTEN LEE: So it's such a delight to be with both of you today and just have this discussion that I think resonates with any of us that have been in education. I started off, actually, as a preschool teacher. And that was incredible work, very tiring, certainly, at the end of the day. And then I went on and ended up getting training as a clinical social worker.

[00:03:27.66] And in that, I saw a lot of teachers come into my office feeling underappreciated or exhausted and really demonstrating the signs of burnout. And I'm actually the first in my family to have the chance to go to college. And to that end, I found education to be so important in my own story and in my own life and felt like teachers really need more support and more esteem from society because that risk of burnout is, I think, quite tragic.

[00:04:03.65] And so I went on to really get into the research around it. And then from there, dedicate my-- I teach now in Boston at a major university. And I teach concepts of psychology and behavior science. And then I spend a lot of time in schools helping leaders, teachers, and staff find those resources that can be really restorative and redemptive in their lives that help them with sustainability, knowing that teachers, especially, have a tremendous risk of burnout.

[00:04:37.23] And so that's just something that I'm really relentlessly committed to and excited to talk with you both today about is, how do we stay and do well and how do we adopt this mindset of it is what it is, knowing that what is sometimes can be really fraught and messy.

[00:04:54.29] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Just for the podcast, could you just share the title of your dissertation? Because you did it, you actually used the teachers in my program as part of your study. So share the title and what you were trying to do.

[00:05:09.32] KRISTEN LEE: Well, I think the central question at that time-- I had worked in the communities of Fall River in New Bedford, Massachusetts. And I was working intently with immigrant and refugee populations and looking at the significance of under-resourcing. That is very common, obviously, in urban school districts.

[00:05:30.68] And this group that we were working with were all in the STEM disciplines. And they really wanted to have the skills, the dispositions, the competencies to really form relationships. We all know at the heart of education is the relationship. And so the focus was looking at the perceptions of urban school teachers on the stressors in the context that they were facing.

[00:05:58.13] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Lester, your story, your teaching history. Let's welcome you into the conversation. What have you been doing all these 30 years or plus? [LAUGHS]

[00:06:13.75] LESTER LAMINACK: This, actually, is the beginning of my fourth. 47th year.

[00:06:18.89] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Wow, a legacy teacher. You are a legacy. Yes.

[00:06:23.35] LESTER LAMINACK: I don't know about that, but I started my career in 1977 working as an elementary teacher. I began in first grade. And then I taught in elementary school in Title 1 reading. I worked with gifted kids in the summer in a university program. I taught in the university for 24-25 years.

[00:06:50.23] And then I took early retirement and decided that I wanted to work with schools and school districts and move out into other places than just where I was and have a little more flexibility to focus on the things that mattered to me. I've worked predominantly in the area of literacy education. I write children's books and books for teachers.

[00:07:14.84] So sometimes, I'm in a school as an author talking with kids, which gives me one view of school. And then other times, I'm in schools talking with teachers about literacy issues, reading and writing literature pieces. So I've kind of been messing with this for almost 50 years.

[00:07:35.13] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. I love that. And I've worked in K-12 and also higher ed, so the three of us bring these different perspectives. We have the clinical perspective. We've been in both contexts, and I feel I can safely say all three of us are committed to education and supporting teachers.

[00:07:55.27] So let's start with the children's books. You started with the teacher books. What's your overall theme? What's the big ideas around your teacher books? Or are they all different? I'm just curious. What's your message in those books?

[00:08:10.20] LESTER LAMINACK: Well, there are several of them, so I don't know if there's an overall theme that cuts through everything. A large focus of what I've done focuses on the power of read-aloud.

[00:08:22.35] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Ah, Jim Trelease. I remember Jim Trelease, the read-aloud.

[00:08:27.54] LESTER LAMINACK: [INAUDIBLE] then focusing a lot of that on the art and the function of it, not just the research behind why we do it but doing it well and also finding ways to make it match the expectations and standards that we're doing so that read-alouds become an instructional act and not just an entertainment piece, that if they're done with the right intentions and paying attention to that.

[00:08:51.35] I've also done-- one of the books I did was helping teachers use carefully curated collections of books to work against bullying and--

[00:09:03.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, OK.

[00:09:05.11] LESTER LAMINACK: --building community inside the classroom and trying to defuse the bullying situations. I've done some books on the teaching of writing and some things on-- one book on looking at what we understand as readers we can apply as writers if we just sort of flip that understanding, like we look at the inverse properties in math. Are we looking at the relationship between what we know as readers and how that influences what we're able to do as writers?

[00:09:35.60] And then the most recent book that I have-- the most recent two books that I've done have had a very similar focus on-- and both of them are looking at having kids come to understand that with the more they read, the broader they read something, the more they have insight and understanding about a particular topic or a way of thinking that may lead them to the felt need to take action, to do something, to right a wrong, to fix an injustice, to speak up, to push back.

[00:10:15.86] And until we learn to be critical thinkers, it's very easy to just fall into the trap of listening to the first report you hear and thinking, oh, I've heard the truth now, instead of questioning and pushing back.

[00:10:33.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. Right. Kristen, what do you think about how Lester has introduced himself and his life's work, really, through this modality of reading, writing, sharing? What are you hearing that relates to you and the stress and the other aspect of schools that aren't as enjoyable sometimes?

[00:10:56.71] KRISTEN LEE: Well, I'm just delighted and honored. I mean, I don't want to make you blush, Lester, but I think it's just phenomenal your investment and particularly this piece around critical thinking. Sometimes, lately, I've been saying, sloppy thinking feels like it's a public health issue.

[00:11:15.37] LESTER LAMINACK: I like that.

[00:11:16.42] KRISTEN LEE: And in the similar way, at the university, I'm adamantly just emphatic about critical thinking skills and really asking these questions around where the information is coming from and just all that's behind that. And so I think your devotion to helping everyone that you can hear and really bend their ear around thinking more expansively and deepening literacy.

[00:11:45.98] It relates emphatically to our ability to cope in life because if we're constantly falling prey to misinformation or disinformation or just skimming the surface, we won't have a deeper understanding on any phenomena that will have a deep impact on educational ecosystem.

[00:12:05.17] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. And our own lives and all of that, Kristen, and how we live and how we interact in schools and how the three of us support teachers, like that listening. What are we going to write that is useful? Either the children's books, the teacher books, the podcasts, where are we contributing to this critical comprehension, thinking, reflection, whatever it is, however we want to frame it? And what's in our control?

[00:12:40.34] So hence the episode topic. So we've got a nice grounding here for it is what it is. [LAUGHS] And I had heard that phrase like-- a friend of mine said it when I was in the middle of whatever, designing this program at the university. And she just turned to me, and I was trying to push forward or whatever. And she just said, hey, Carol, it is what it is.

[00:13:08.54] And I think it means different things to different people. I'll share what it means. But Lester, what does that mean to you when you heard you were going to-- that's your episode? [LAUGHS] What does that mean to you?

[00:13:22.40] LESTER LAMINACK: Well, I think it can mean several things. And it depends, I believe, on the attitude and the tone behind it and the contextual frame in which it is provided.

[00:13:33.47] So it could be used as a way to say, it is what it is, and shut down the conversation as if to say, you have no more to say. I don't want to hear this. I have given you my final word, so I am now exiting the conversation. And I am right, and you are wrong. And that's the piece. So I think that those words can be used like any language. It can be used depending upon intention.

[00:14:03.83] It could also mean that I have looked at this from every angle. I have looked at what's in my control. I've looked at what's out of my control. I have examined this situation. And I essentially have now decided, I can't do anything about this. It is what it is, so what I have to do is to consider what are those things that I can do to move forward and get myself where I was intending to go or re-examine my goals and make another choice someplace else. So simply just looking at it either way.

[00:14:41.31] And I think when you hear those words, you can tell in a heartbeat, you can see the facial expressions, the body language, the tone, the context of the conversation and know immediately, is this being said to shut you down, or is this being said to help you redirect and refocus?

[00:15:01.88] And sometimes, you say it to yourself, OK, it is what it is, so what I've got to do is I've got to just make another plan. And sometimes, someone else has listened to you overanalyse the task 14 different ways, and they finally help you go, OK, Lester, let's look. It is what it is.

[00:15:18.97] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: [LAUGHS]

[00:15:20.18] LESTER LAMINACK: What are we going to do about it? So we don't need to spend more time on the problem. We need to start thinking about the solution.

[00:15:28.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love that. Kristen, what do you think about that? And what's your-- do you want to tweak that? I just love everything Lester just said.

[00:15:36.13] KRISTEN LEE: Yeah, I think it's just tremendous insight. And I think that we can use it, right? There's tangible ways in which we can use the perspective. And like you said, there's a lot of duality. There's many ways in which it could be phrased or asserted. But I think, to your point, when we use it in order to think about our locus of control, there's a lot of research that suggests that people who focus on what's within their locus of control will then devote their resources accordingly.

[00:16:07.18] So one thing that I get pretty enthralled by is this concept of our own body budget as educators. And we know we have a finite amount of energy and resources, time. So if we're constantly belaboring or ruminating over what we can't control, obviously, that can be detrimental. So I really love how you thought about that and looking at it more from a strengths-based perspective. What is true? And what is possible?

[00:16:36.01] And so I've thought a lot about-- I think you've inspired me so much, Carol, on your own in this book that is just such an anthology of your life's work. And I think one thing that you embody that I think the audience, I think, can gain so much from is your own humility and your vulnerability. And I think as educators, we all know it's a very humbling proposition to teach. We have to get a liking for humble pie, right?

[00:17:06.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.

[00:17:07.69] KRISTEN LEE: I always think of it to a whack-a-mole game, teaching and the work of education.

[00:17:12.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right.

[00:17:12.61] KRISTEN LEE: You feel like you master one thing, another thing pops up. And that's just the natural chaos.

[00:17:17.74] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I think that as the teachers are listening to this, it is about the freedom that we have to choose that reaction because when I reread the story and why I didn't want to write this particular story is that it was embarrassing. I was like, oh my god. I can't believe I just took this high ground that it wasn't fair the principal gave me an extra duty everybody else had. It sounded so petty when I wrote it down.

[00:17:51.64] And I really had to think about, do you want to put this in a book that everybody can read, that you actually was upset about it? It caused a lot of stress for me that it wasn't fair, that I wanted to work with kids as much as everybody else did. But I had to work an extra half hour in the cafeteria, and he would not resolve it, the principal, for years!

[00:18:23.06] And so at the end, like Lester is saying-- and it's funny and embarrassing all at the same time-- I had to ask myself in the scheme of things, am I never going to talk to my colleagues again? But there are people who do that! I have [INAUDIBLE] teachers' rooms where you don't talk to that person because they didn't help you in a certain way.

[00:18:52.38] And I decided, what do I have to lose? Like Lester, I've been in the profession for 50 years. That's the true story. We know it's the true story, but we don't want to say it. So I had to choose consciously to let it go.

[00:19:09.97] LESTER LAMINACK: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:10.43] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that's the pivot that you're talking about and that Lester was talking about, to consciously not be a victim. It's like, why am I just ruminating over why the principal isn't being fair and I'm the one that has to do more And we've heard it, right? Lester, you're laughing, right?

[00:19:29.86] LESTER LAMINACK: I am laughing.

[00:19:30.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And then I move on. And guess what happened. Are you ready for-- I'm not going to tell the end of the story. I'm not going to tell it, so people are going to have to listen. The story is in the program notes, and you're going to hear what happened because it's just karma the way things worked out.

[00:19:51.57] So Lester, what is my story and what Kristen said? How does this relate to this? It is what it is. Does it relate to you?

[00:19:59.86] LESTER LAMINACK: [CHUCKLES] Yeah, of course. Absolutely. Yeah, of course.

[00:20:02.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, of course. [LAUGHS] It's funny.

[00:20:05.91] LESTER LAMINACK: As I was listening, we're all talking-- we're all teachers, and we're talking to teachers. And you're giving the example of something in a school, but that feeling you were having, this notion of it isn't fair, I am being asked to do something no one else is being asked to do. I think that's human.

[00:20:22.50] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:20:22.91] LESTER LAMINACK: It's everywhere in every profession.

[00:20:25.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:20:26.43] LESTER LAMINACK: Yeah, not just in the school with our colleagues, but we also see things like that damaging longtime friendships with people.

[00:20:34.78] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:20:35.58] LESTER LAMINACK: We just feel like, well, I'm not talking to them anymore. Instead of having that opportunity to step back. And I'm reminded of a saying that people share frequently, that "anger really doesn't harm the person you're angry with. It harms you." And like you said, "I finally only had to let it go." And probably at that moment, you felt quite a bit of relief.

[00:20:59.58] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my god! I was so happy when I learned the lesson of what it is. And I'm glad I learned it early enough. But I have to be honest, writing about it and putting it in a book for everybody to read was very, Wow, what are they going to think about that?

[00:21:18.08] Like, geez, you couldn't figure that out? But what we have to also, the three of us, as we have this conversation, if we're working in higher education, we're authors, we're all writers, if we're not going to tell the truth--

[00:21:33.67] LESTER LAMINACK: No kidding.

[00:21:34.28] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's what you were getting to earlier. It's like, What is the truth?

[00:21:39.44] KRISTEN LEE: Uh-hum.

[00:21:39.73] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And I don't want to be afraid to tell the truth about how I feel. So that's the most humiliating story in my book. [LAUGHS] And hopefully, it will resonate about-- it's about accepting. It was so many emotions. It's about accepting.

[00:21:59.25] And then the other thing, too, that Lester said about the different ways to it is what it is, this one's so packed. This one is a deeper one. It is the way we react when we say it.

[00:22:13.38] So you all have-- we look at people's facial language when they say it to us, but how do I say it? If I say, "it is what it is," it could be that angry, and I never talk to that principal again. He's never going to get the authentic me.

[00:22:32.48] I'm not going to be me with him because he just did something unfair, and I'm a fair person. I was known as the teacher firm, but fair. [LAUGHS] And I liked it. So our audience is listening and they're laughing because we all define ourselves who we want-- we want to be perfect.

[00:22:55.24] So what? Tell us a story now. I want to hear what-- I want to hear your humiliating stories. No, just kidding. [LAUGHS]

[00:23:02.52] KRISTEN LEE: Well, that's true. Come on.

[00:23:03.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: [LAUGHS] When you had to do "it is what it is." How does this relate to you, Kristen, in real time, not like philosophical, higher Ed babble?

[00:23:13.48] KRISTEN LEE: [LAUGHS]

[00:23:14.71] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Be real.

[00:23:15.35] KRISTEN LEE: It's a teacher tell-all. Well, I think [INAUDIBLE]. I will say this, that your candor is refreshing, Carol. I think that when we can be honest, we all have those moments where we just get stuck. And it's just so much part of the human experience. And so I think the more honest we can get with ourselves and each other, the better off we are because then we confront what needs to be confronted.

[00:23:41.15] I'll say this. I think also that we teach what we need to learn. So for me, as a person who's all about helping teachers stay well and stave off burnout-- and as I was doing my research, I became my own case study of burnout. And I think that was a big wake-up call that I was really overwriting my body's, begging to take a breath, to take a beat, to take a hot second to actually engage in self-care.

[00:24:16.01] And I think that there is that risk of the curse of knowledge. We know what we're supposed to do. And then when the rubber meets the road, we don't always follow through even or practice what we preach.

[00:24:29.15] So I think my reckoning was just realizing that I had to be more careful about my own boundaries, my own toxic inner critic that was always on my shoulder. I think so many of us have that experience in this work because we take-- it's our vocation. We take it to heart. We want our students to do well. We want them to flourish.

[00:24:58.38] So I think just recognizing our own challenges, just as you did. So my big takeaway and my big lesson was learning that lesson of it's OK to give myself permission to take a minute for myself. It's OK to set the boundaries I need to maintain my own mental hygiene and well-being.

[00:25:20.39] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, because who wants to read a book on burnout from somebody who's burned out?

[00:25:25.90] KRISTEN LEE: [LAUGHS]

[00:25:26.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: How many people--

[00:25:26.89] KRISTEN LEE: [INAUDIBLE] on fire. Raccoon eyes.

[00:25:30.75] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: But we know that we've all been burned out. And we're doing it and yet--

[00:25:37.24] KRISTEN LEE: Raise your hand if you're unsure.

[00:25:39.13] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I know.

[00:25:40.68] KRISTEN LEE: [LAUGHS]

[00:25:41.93] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's just the way-- it is what it is [LAUGHS] because that's our [INAUDIBLE]. So Lester, an example or how does this resonate and show up in your real life, where you have to make the decision? Because it's not just the saying of it is. It's actually what do you do when you're in that place to move out of it, I guess. I don't know.

[00:26:06.37] LESTER LAMINACK: And I know some of these can be-- and it seems like we're the ones we're mentioning so far are major life changes, things that happen someplace, so there was a big shift. But I think we also experienced that in just daily, ordinary events. And how we respond to them contributes to our overall mental health.

[00:26:29.77] And if you get a habit, if you fall into a pattern of letting all the small things become major things, then I think it can shut you down. You could easily get in a place where you just fall into depression. So I'll give you an example of one that doesn't fall into the teaching category, but it's just what happens to ordinary people in ordinary daily life.

[00:26:57.42] So Steve and I are on a road trip, and we had been around the country and a little car called a Mini Cooper. And so we were traveling back and making our way home to North Carolina from Seattle. So we are cutting across, and our plan got changed because there were fires in the Northwest, so it rerouted us, which, first of all, changed where we wanted to go to where we had to go.

[00:27:23.72] That one we could deal with, like, oh, well, nice scenery in another part of the state. But we had planned for days to get home, and Steve had to-- we wanted to get home on Thursday because Steve had to go back to work on Friday. And on the following Monday, I was flying off to do a week of work in Maine.

[00:27:44.18] So we're driving along, we're calculating how many hours a day we have to drive and where are our stops will be. And we make a stop in North Platte, Nebraska, to get a sandwich or something. Just get us something to eat.

[00:27:59.32] We pull in, and the subway that was right there on the interstate was closed because the manager owner had been involved in a motorcycle accident, and they weren't opening. So it's like, well, let's get in the car, and we'll go up the road to someplace else. We'll be get in the car, and the tire pressure light is on.

[00:28:19.68] So we get out, and the tire is flat. And we have a little punk thing in the back of the car that's battery operated. We thought we'd just fill it up and get to a place and see what it is. Well, you couldn't fill it up because it wasn't the tire.

[00:28:33.26] It was the valve stem where you put the air in. It had a big split in it, which you can't repair. So we dutifully called AAA to save ourselves. And they're offering lovely advice that will all take place tomorrow morning.

[00:28:51.42] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Uh oh. [LAUGHS]

[00:28:52.73] LESTER LAMINACK: [INAUDIBLE]. And it's like, no, no, no, no. We have 3 and 1/2 more hours for today in order to make it by when we want to make it. And so at first, your first reaction is, hurry up. The whole [INAUDIBLE] falling apart. [INAUDIBLE] you can't do this. We we're in the middle of nowhere, and we're so far from where we need to be. And this little subway is not even open. What are we going to do?

[00:29:20.54] Well, after you have that kind of stress moment, and you get to the place where you have called everybody to call, you've looked at all the resources, you've done a Google search for a tire shop. Everything is closed. You can literally do nothing until tomorrow.

[00:29:39.20] You look across the street, and there is a little motel. It's not a place I'd normally stay, but it was there. It did have a place to sleep. We could take care of this tomorrow. And it just throws us off by six or seven hours because you have to wait till the next morning.

[00:29:56.06] In the long run, it all worked out. We just drove longer one day than we had intended. But at the moment, it was a big issue, although now it's just a little small one. And I think a lot of our situations, because teaching is a constant-- it's like being an air traffic controller. You're trying to watch everything all the time and avoid any collision somewhere.

[00:30:23.73] And when one domino falls, you know another one is going to, and you're scrambling, trying to save everything. And I think in those places, when we're able to step back and say, this is no major catastrophe, it messed up my plan, no one is harmed, this situation can be a lesson for us all if we step back from it. But it is so hard in the moment not to react with that tense.

[00:30:56.44] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. And the reaction and then to move forward if you were in a school with other people blaming someone else and going into the other emotions when it is out of your control. So you said something interesting that I like. Kristen [INAUDIBLE] to you. You Said, something about habits.

[00:31:16.48] It's like we get our habits from the little things we repeat, and then we use them if it's a habit with the big life decision because now we have a habit. Kristen, do you want to respond to that?

[00:31:31.53] KRISTEN LEE: Well, again, I think-- I'm thinking as we're having this conversation together, there might be a lot of new teachers listening, and really eager for strategic thinking and being careful about how catastrophic thinking or just reactive thinking can be really detrimental. So together we have 110 years, if my math is right of working [INAUDIBLE].

[00:31:59.64] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: [LAUGHS] Very wise people. Yes, OK.

[00:32:02.86] KRISTEN LEE: Yeah, but I think what I'm also thinking about is, in my early career, so many of these skills, the habits, the behaviors, the mindsets, we have to give, I think, again, take that lens of self-compassion, that these are skills that can be developed.

[00:32:21.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Right. And that-- but it's that skill set, I think, that you two are-- you're both talking about, and knowing in the moment how to make that decision, Lester, about the motel. That isn't the choice we would have made.

[00:32:35.22] It's knowing how to pivot because that's the choice right now. So do you want to not take the choice? Well, there wasn't any choice. But you have the freedom to do it. But I think what-- I'd like to move into the practice.

[00:32:51.94] We've talked a lot about our ideas and emotions and reactions. You've each written books, Lester, from one of your books, the one that you have written with Corwin, what's a takeaway that-- a teaser from there that-- why would that book be helpful for teachers, to help them?

[00:33:14.61] LESTER LAMINACK: Playing off of what Kristen just said, the idea of perspective. The book critical comprehension is focused on the idea that comprehension is more than giving the right answer to someone else's question, and that it is more than just walking away and being able to restate what the text said.

[00:33:37.00] So it is the idea that we are pushing against what we read and asking, is there more? Is there another voice that isn't being told? Is this story being slanted by someone? So one of the chapters is developing an understanding of what perspective is and developing an understanding of how we recognize perspective when we read, and then being able to say if we understand that all writing is done through a biased lens.

[00:34:09.73] There is no one without bias, no matter whatever. You like pink and unconsciously when you write, you put more pink things in your writing, or you tell more pink things in your story. Whatever your lens is that you're looking through becomes a filter for your work, and you may not recognize it. You can't see what your brain already knows is on the page.

[00:34:35.31] So someone else reading that will see it. What we're trying to help kids recognize is that they look at a text and ask, Who are the-- what are the voices are we not hearing?

[00:34:48.90] What story could be told here that isn't represented? And at this point in history where we have so many kids who are coming into play, where they have spent their entire life with a tablet in their hand, and all you've got to do is ask a question, and you get an immediate answer that may or may not be vetted by anyone. You're going to present a particular perspective.

[00:35:20.50] And if a kid learns any answer you get, any text you read, there is always a counter-narrative to that, there is always another perspective to it, and you truly don't understand something until you have read several of those-- so I was thinking Kristen's line about sloppy thinking is a public health issue should be a bumper sticker.

[00:35:42.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yay.

[00:35:42.93] [LAUGHTER]

[00:35:46.02] Thank you for that. And as I'm listening to you, it's so important to just recognize that we don't know the other perspective, but there is one. So that's what I'm hearing you say, is that this isn't the only part of the story. Just like we're talking about "it is what it is." We all come to it with a different emotional reaction, feeling righteousness, whatever judgments, perspectives.

[00:36:19.57] So thank you for that. I think that's an important book. We'll make sure that book is in the notes for all our listeners.

[00:36:26.21] Kristen, you've written several books, and Kristen also wrote the foreword for Teaching With Light. So when you get that book, you can read that for yourself, her perspective on the importance of teacher self-- I don't even want to say self-care anymore because people are like, oh my god, don't say self-care. But teacher well-being and worthiness maybe is a better way to say it.

[00:36:52.67] So which practical book strategy? You want to talk about your latest book and give us a teaser from that, Kristen?

[00:37:02.08] KRISTEN LEE: I think that the key thing is-- and Lester, I just love how you exemplify this level of thinking and then helping support that in the learners and the ecosystems that you serve. I think just we have to be willing to, I think, embrace the complexity and the duality of life and the many lenses in which we look at things.

[00:37:29.37] So much of my research and my writing, I do focus a lot on what is the locus of control. And I have a relentless belief that we do have to focus again on our strengths, our assets, our resources, what else is true, what else is possible. And I think just that speaks to our shared humanity. Again, there are more questions than answers and that we could get curious about that and excited.

[00:38:01.62] And I think that one of the themes that's emerging in our conversations is adopting a non-judgmental stance to ourselves and to one another. You just highlighted bias, Lester.

[00:38:13.89] And it's so easy, again, to be judgmental or reactive. And when we get in that kind of space, it's very unproductive. So I think that ability to step back, look at things, ideate possibilities can be really helpful.

[00:38:30.57] I'll also say this, that when I'm on the ground working with teachers-- I actually spend the morning with teachers in urban district. They're starting-- they had their senior leadership meeting today.

[00:38:44.25] I feel like so many educators feel like what they're doing isn't enough. There's a lot of stress, a lot of imposter syndrome, a lot of things happening behind the scenes in their lives, and they're really giving an earnest effort. And so I'll share a quote that I love to share with teachers that I serve, which is from Georgia O'Keeffe. I've been absolutely terrified every moment of my life, but I've never let it stop me from doing a single thing I've wanted to do.

[00:39:16.77] And I feel like that speaks to the teaching experience, the teaching and learning experience. It's so scary. It's intense. There's so much we're trying-- when we think about sloppy thinking, and we think about kids being born with iPads in their hand, and just all the brouhaha and the polarization, and just all the existential threats, it's a lot to contend with. And we understand how important education is and the role of an educator. And it can be absolutely terrifying.

[00:39:48.49] And then, yeah, we're still in it. We still have our sleeves rolled up. And we're not letting it stop us.

[00:39:55.61] And I think a lot of times as teachers, we have to step back and actually celebrate that and recognize how sacred our work is and the value that we bring because I think we do-- society can devalue us really quickly. And I think we have to just honor that in our own identities. And that's a big piece of what I write about, and I teach--

[00:40:19.30] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And that book is, for our listeners, Worth the Risk. And I think what you're saying it's worth the risk to be terrified and--

[00:40:29.32] KRISTEN LEE: We have to speak our truths. And I think you've done that [INAUDIBLE] in all your work.

[00:40:34.39] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I have a few more questions for you as we wind down this conversation, which has been very reflective for me to think back on my stories and share with both of you. So how do you stay motivated, inspired in your work, Lester, to keep doing what you're doing since you began? What's your way that you support yourself?

[00:41:02.86] LESTER LAMINACK: To stay motivated and inspired, I spend time with kids.

[00:41:07.27] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK, and what else do you do for you?

[00:41:10.76] LESTER LAMINACK: Oh, for me?

[00:41:11.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, for you. I hear you traveling. Your story was about traveling. So are you a big traveler?

[00:41:19.36] LESTER LAMINACK: I travel a lot for work, working with teachers around the schools around the country. So when I'm not working, I prefer to just be home and be here. I live in the mountains of North Carolina. And I like little drives on the back road.

[00:41:37.04] I do a lot of photography, which is--

[00:41:39.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Ooh.

[00:41:39.70] LESTER LAMINACK: Yeah.

[00:41:40.66] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Fun.

[00:41:41.97] LESTER LAMINACK: Because it causes you to think. Most of my life, the work I do, I'm working with words.

[00:41:48.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:41:49.18] LESTER LAMINACK: It makes me think about something with light and composition and shadows and reflections, which makes you think a different way.

[00:41:58.59] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes, I love art. I'm doing abstract art now. I don't even want any-- and I'm a writer as well.

[00:42:05.37] It's like getting away from the words, and taking photos. It just feels peaceful. Thanks for sharing that. Kristen, what do you do to get away from the words? We're all word people.

[00:42:18.52] [LAUGHTER]

[00:42:19.76] KRISTEN LEE: We're nerds.

[00:42:21.12] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: We're nerds. We're the word nerds. Yes.

[00:42:24.26] KRISTEN LEE: Well, I love performance art. And I started with comedy a few years ago because I am--

[00:42:32.00] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:42:32.48] KRISTEN LEE: --working with-- there is a very serious side of this mental health crisis that's affecting everyone and education across the world. We're seeing this global situation. And they're calling it the age of anxiety. And so I take that very seriously, the work supporting folks.

[00:42:53.14] So I love humor. I love playfulness. And I started my own comedy show, and it raises money for mental health access and awareness for BIPOC populations and then for the National Alliance on Mental Illness. So I love to just be playful and silly.

[00:43:15.12] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What was the name? Because I went to one of your shows, and it was hilarious. And it was--

[00:43:19.62] KRISTEN LEE: There was much fun. It's called "Cracking up with Dr. Chris, where therapy comedy."

[00:43:24.01] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes.

[00:43:24.96] KRISTEN LEE: We tackle a lot of the big themes, but in a very-- just a way that's a lot of fun. And so I think humor is very powerful.

[00:43:33.55] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yes. How have you both changed your thinking over time? So we're talking, we're reflecting, we're looking back on stories. What did you use to think, Lester, and what do you think now?

[00:43:49.35] LESTER LAMINACK: Just about life in general, you're talking?

[00:43:51.60] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, sure. Or you're the field. Or what did you use to think And, what do you think now?

[00:44:00.05] LESTER LAMINACK: I used to think I had to do all the things.

[00:44:03.44] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: OK.

[00:44:03.94] LESTER LAMINACK: There was something new going on, I had to be on top of it. If I had to be involved with it, I had to be good at everything.

[00:44:13.26] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: And what do you think now?

[00:44:14.85] LESTER LAMINACK: Now I think the thing you have to do is find out who you are and be your truest self.

[00:44:22.94] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Love it.

[00:44:23.52] LESTER LAMINACK: That took a long time to get to a place where I'm not trying to be what everybody in the world is looking for.

[00:44:33.08] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yeah, oh, it's a relief to feel that. Kristen.

[00:44:36.48] LESTER LAMINACK: [INAUDIBLE], yeah.

[00:44:37.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: What did you used to think? And now, what do you think?

[00:44:41.73] KRISTEN LEE: I think about imposter syndrome. So I used to think, to that point, you have to be perfect, or you can't let anyone see you sweat unless it's to show off your hot yoga class or you feel like that pressure that you have to always be buttoned up. And I think that's why, like the Georgia quote so much. It's acknowledging we can be terrified, we can feel like a hot mess, but we're also doing fairly well and it's human. So I think just I've learned to be more generous with myself, to acknowledge the foibles and the shortcomings and the quirks and the challenges, and not feel embarrassed, like you talked about in your story, but just to be like--

[00:45:22.03] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Be human.

[00:45:22.50] KRISTEN LEE: [INAUDIBLE]

[00:45:22.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You're going to be human.

[00:45:23.92] [LAUGHTER]

[00:45:24.34] KRISTEN LEE: It's OK to not be OK, but you don't have to stay stuck.

[00:45:27.52] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yay. So we're going to end with some good news. So you each have a chance to share something that you're celebrating, something positive, something that's just going on. And this was inspired by John Krasinski. During COVID, he had his SGN show, and it was always some good news. So who has some good news? Lester, Kristen, what do you want to end this, "It is what it is" podcast with? What are you celebrating, Lester?

[00:45:59.50] LESTER LAMINACK: I have a new picture book coming out in January called A Cat Like That. And the art is done by a fabulous artist named Nicole Wong. So I'm really excited about that. And then I'm working on some things, some new picture book projects and a new teacher book project.

[00:46:18.38] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I can't wait to dive into your children's books. I have two grandchildren that will love i. And I'm very excited. So that's worth celebrating. Bravo. Kristen, what do you want-- what are you celebrating? What's some good news in your world?

[00:46:32.18] KRISTEN LEE: Well, I would just say this. I shared that-- I had the chance to be with an incredible group of educators this morning. I think that it's easy to be really disheartened by the level of angst and the level of mental health acuity. But I think what's incredible, and I'm very heartened by, is how many leaders and how many people are really trying to really integrate more social emotional learning approaches. Just I think that appetite and that collective will has really increased significantly.

[00:47:05.76] And I think a lot of teachers are really interested in how they can sustain their well-being. And I think there's a tremendous appetite and need for that. And that kind of just inspires me continually to see the-- I always say teachers are angels on Earth. It's just incredible.

[00:47:24.99] And sometimes, I think they undervalue themselves or feel underappreciated. But I think we're really recognizing-- I think even through the pandemic, I think, we really saw the incredible feats that teachers have to perform and leaders and staff. And I'm really heartened by that and motivated to continue to help people look at their habits, look at their mindsets, look at their beliefs, and put things into action that can really keep them going in this really vital work. So that energizes me. I am really excited.

[00:47:57.85] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh my god, Thank you for this fabulous, rich conversation on the most challenging topic of the season. So I appreciate. So to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to this Teacher to Teacher podcast.

[00:48:11.61] Please share it. Remember to stay inspired, stay healthy. And don't forget to share your good news with everyone around you.

[00:48:20.97] Thank you, Kristen. Thank you, Lester. And everybody, tune in. Lesson 7 is titled "Be the Wave." So good bye for now. Thank you both.

[00:48:32.91] [UPBEAT MUSIC]

[00:48:33.74] MALE ANNOUNCER: Thanks, everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com.

[00:48:50.09] Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.

[00:49:04.06] FEMALE ANNOUNCER: Come explorer Corwin's free new teacher toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran teacher, find ready-to-go teaching tools at corwin.com today.