We're All Learners and Doers of Math Everyday

Series 2 Teacher to Teacher Podcast

[00:00:00.00] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:00:02.59] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Corwin's Teacher to Teacher Podcast with host Carol Pelletier Radford. Carol is an experienced classroom teacher and university educator, founder of mentoringinaction.com, and author of four best selling professional books for teachers. She believes the best form of professional learning happens when teachers engage in authentic conversations and share their wisdom.

[00:00:23.97] In every episode, Carol and her guests share stories about pivotal moments in their careers, successful classroom strategies, and personal actions they take to minimize stress and stay healthy. The Teacher to Teacher Podcast is a place to engage in authentic conversation and reflection with experienced educators. We hope these conversations will energize you, keep you inspired, and remind you why you chose to become a teacher.

[00:00:49.05] TORI BACHMAN: Hello. Welcome to the Teacher to Teacher Podcast, Sharing Our Wisdom with our host Carol Radford. I am Tori Bachman, a Corwin Editor and Co-organizer of this podcast, which we've created for teachers at all levels who are searching for practical wisdom they can use in their classrooms. We believe we're all constantly learning and we're learning together. To share their wisdom today, we have two educator guests with broad experience and really interesting backgrounds. We have Christa Jackson and Brooke Traverso. I'll introduce them to you now.

[00:01:22.14] Christa Jackson is a professor of mathematics, science, and STEM education at Saint Louis University. She's the founder and director of the Institute for STEM Collaboration, Outreach, and Education, or ISCORE, where she focuses on transforming the STEM community by fostering student STEM literacy development, STEM identity, and STEM sense of belonging.

[00:01:46.23] Christa is a professional developer and a mathematics and STEM consultant as well as an author on a few Corwin books, the most recent is Simplifying STEM for Equitable Practices to Inspire Meaningful Learning. And she's an editor on the series, "Powerful Mathematicians Who Change the World", which I believe is published by NCTM. Is that right, Christa?

[00:02:07.98] CHRISTA JACKSON: Yes, that's correct.

[00:02:09.01] TORI BACHMAN: Thank you. That sounds like a great series actually. I'm really interested in learning more about that. Thanks for being with us.

[00:02:15.06] CHRISTA JACKSON: Thank you very much.

[00:02:17.00] TORI BACHMAN: And we also have Brooke Traverso with us. Brooke is a fourth grade math and science teacher at Brown School in Massachusetts, part of the Swansea Public Schools District. Brooke is the lead mentor and district trainer in her district as well. She's the mom of two children, ages seven and three, so we know she's pretty busy all the time. And this is Brooke's 24th year teaching, which I find really amazing.

[00:02:42.27] Brooke is also one of the educators featured in Carol's recent book titled, When I Started Teaching, I Wish I Had Known, Weekly Wisdom for Beginning Teachers. Hi, Brooke.

[00:02:53.51] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Hi. Thank you.

[00:02:54.95] TORI BACHMAN: Thanks for being here with us. We've been really looking forward to this conversation, and we appreciate the time that you're taking to just talk with us and help us learn with you alongside you, so I'll turn this over to Carol now.

[00:03:08.90] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you and welcome. Thanks, Tori, for that great introduction. And we have two math-focused people tonight. We never know how this podcast is going to match up, much like The Dating Game. As we talk about, we select our teachers because it's Teacher to Teacher Podcast, but you bring such a variety of experiences. But tonight we're going to focus on math, and equity, and leadership.

[00:03:39.21] So what I love about this podcast is that the wisdom from the classroom shows up. And that's the magic that we're trying to unpack for our listeners so that they can take away this practical advice or resources and integrate into their classroom teaching. So Brooke, I would like to know. Share your story of how did you end up-- where are you now? I know you're teaching math. And did you always want to be a teacher? And what was a little bit about your journey of how you got to where you are right now?

[00:04:16.45] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Sure. So ever since I was a little girl, all I could imagine was being a teacher. Besides being a mom and a wife, teaching was what I wanted to do. I remember I grew up as an only child and I remember vividly playing school with my stuffed animals and dolls all the time. [INAUDIBLE] and I've always loved math. Math was my jam, so I wanted to teach math.

[00:04:39.52] So I started as a preschool teacher while I was going to college to become an elementary educator. I taught preschool for six years, and then I went into the Catholic school while I was getting my master's degree, and I taught K to two. I loved the little kids, but I just really wanted to teach math. So once I got my master's degree, I got a job for Swansea Public Schools. They didn't have a classroom teacher position, so I took a position as a three to five computer teacher, but I was teaching math content on computers.

[00:05:13.36] And my first year, I got voluntarily moved into a fourth grade math and science classroom by February vacation. So this is my 14th year in that position, and I love it.

[00:05:23.42] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, that's great. I know you're a leader as well in your district. Can you just share how that interfaces with your math teaching, and who else are you supporting in your district?

[00:05:35.83] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Absolutely. So 14 years ago, my principal-- she's the assistant superintendent now, but my principal at the time asked me if I would take courses with you to become a lead mentor for my district, so I did. It was a year long, and I took the courses and went to the PD. And I became a lead mentor just for my school. Within a few years, they had me become the lead mentor for my school and our other three to five school in my district. And I started training teachers to become mentors while also mentoring myself.

[00:06:12.02] And then I started teaching-- or mentoring courses with you through Mentoring In Action, and I-- two years ago, became a district trainer by facilitating your courses with teachers in my district.

[00:06:27.46] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you. It's so great to see you your face really. We've only met in person once many years ago.

[00:06:36.14] BROOKE TRAVERSO: I know.

[00:06:36.86] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: [INAUDIBLE] dedication to leadership and the expansion from your place of staying in the classroom. And I want our listeners to hear that that's possible, that everybody doesn't-- I did leave the classroom and go to the university, but I admire the teachers who stay, and model, and still are leaders from within. And that really makes such a huge difference.

[00:07:01.37] So you've had-- it sounds like there have been pivotal moments when you had to make decisions about what to lead or-- I don't know. Can you share a story or a moment that you made a decision that's kind of transformed the way you approach your teaching and leadership?

[00:07:23.00] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Sure. So I feel that there have been many pivotal moments in my career that have influenced me, but as I said, I've always just wanted to be a classroom teacher. Teaching just math and science has been the best for me because I love math. But when I started working with you in 2014, I feel like it shifted my thinking into wanting to become more of a leader, so thank you for that.

[00:07:47.42] As I said, I was chosen to take your courses to become a lead mentor, and I started running group meetings, which was new for me. I was training teachers in my district to become mentors and mentoring teachers individually. So becoming the lead mentor for another school in my district was a big role too, because then I was working with teachers that I hadn't-- I knew them, but I hadn't worked with them before, so I was running meetings at their school. And I just think the work that I've done with you has helped me to become more of a leader in my district, especially within the last two years.

[00:08:23.64] So after taking your courses and working with you through Mentoring In Action, responding to journals, becoming a mentor, I-- with your help-- brought it to my assistant superintendent that we could offer the classes in my district. And she agreed. We started small with just one course last year, and I ran it twice, and it went really well. And now this year, I'm running all five of your courses.

[00:08:47.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Yay. [LAUGHS]

[00:08:48.86] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Twice a year in my district.

[00:08:50.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You're blooming.

[00:08:51.25] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Yeah. Everyone's loving them.

[00:08:53.69] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: [INAUDIBLE]. Bloom where you're planted. And it's so inspiring to see you grow from the moment that I met you, that brief meeting, into a brave teacher leader in your district and beyond, so thank you. Christa, so you've been listening.

[00:09:11.76] CHRISTA JACKSON: [LAUGHS] Yes.

[00:09:12.91] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: [INAUDIBLE] similar-- so what did you hear Brooke say that kind of inspires you? And then I want to hear your story too.

[00:09:20.67] CHRISTA JACKSON: Yeah, so everything that Brooke said has truly inspired me, and it truly resonates with the reason why I decided to become a teacher. Similar to Brooke, I've always wanted to be a teacher since I was a very, very little girl. It has been a passion of mine, and it still is a passion of mine.

[00:09:43.96] I love to see the aha moments on my pre-service teachers' face as well as my scholars' faces when I do integrated STEM with them during after school camps, and clubs, et cetera. But I've always wanted to be a teacher. And I've always loved mathematics. Mathematics has always been my favorite subject, and it still is one of the best subjects that there is in the world. Now science is in there too.

[00:10:13.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So all of the listeners are going-- oh, I don't know. Math is hard. I don't think I like math. We do not usually hear this from two guests that they both love math, so this is--

[00:10:26.72] CHRISTA JACKSON: It's the best.

[00:10:27.53] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --interesting.

[00:10:27.86] BROOKE TRAVERSO: I agree.

[00:10:28.34] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So you're at the university now. I asked Brooke about a pivotal moment. What was the pivotal moment or the influences that took you away from the loving classroom that you loved to making a decision to teach at the university? How did that happen?

[00:10:49.43] CHRISTA JACKSON: Yes, I've always loved teaching my-- I taught at the elementary level-- fourth and fifth grade-- but then also taught at the middle school level-- both seventh and eighth grade-- and I just want to put a plug in. I did teach math and science at the middle school.

[00:11:04.37] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, my god. I can't believe it.

[00:11:06.86] [LAUGHTER]

[00:11:07.70] CHRISTA JACKSON: [INAUDIBLE] on the both ends. But I've always wanted to do that, but then while I was teaching at those grade levels, I was reaching my students in my classroom as well as the community, but I wanted to expand my reach further. So I thought, well, what are some ways that I can really broaden my reach and still ensure the passion that I have of teaching and that love and joy of teaching?

[00:11:33.90] So then I just thought, well, maybe I want to be a faculty member at the university level. So then when I'm working with pre-service teachers, they would encounter their students, and then their students will-- it will just expand. And as we know, that's mathematics. It will grow exponentially, so it will just--

[00:11:54.20] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh, there you go.

[00:11:55.20] CHRISTA JACKSON: --continue to--

[00:11:55.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: There you go.

[00:11:56.30] CHRISTA JACKSON: --grow, and grow and grow.

[00:11:57.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: You're making me a believer.

[00:11:58.91] [LAUGHTER]

[00:11:59.84] CHRISTA JACKSON: And then really expanding the love, the joy and so our scholars can really see the joy, and the beauty, and the wonder of mathematics. Because mathematics is so much more there than just doing the calculations, doing the algorithms. But then when we have our scholars, our teachers, our pre-service teachers as well as our parents and our communities see that mathematics is in everything and all that we do. It's in nature, and see that love and that joy.

[00:12:29.51] And then to turn that hate-love relationship towards mathematics to at least a like-love relationship, that's where I get my passion. Because at the university level, I'm teaching-- my prospective teachers are elementary as well as middle and high school. And some of them, as we know, they don't like mathematics or they have that math anxiety. So that if I can just spark that love, joy-- or at least a like joy so that they can begin to transform that within the students that they reach and teach in the classroom, then I have embarked my mission there.

[00:13:13.90] And then one of the reasons why I decided to go at the university level, one of my colleagues when I was teaching at Carver Middle School decided he wanted to go and get his doctorate, and so that really planted a seed within me. I was like, huh. That is something that I can do too. And then my sister-in-law's parents continue to encourage me to go ahead and do that. And then, of course, my parents always encourage me to always do the best and go as far as you can and can all you get, as the saying goes.

[00:13:48.20] And so I was like, well, yes. I think I can do that too. And so therefore--

[00:13:53.27] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it.

[00:13:53.69] CHRISTA JACKSON: I decided to go and get my PhD in mathematics education and curriculum instruction at Mizzou.

[00:14:02.05] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That is amazing. What a story. But see how people influence-- in these pivotal moments when you're trying to make a decision, the right people came into your life.

[00:14:13.52] CHRISTA JACKSON: Exactly.

[00:14:13.94] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: The story that Brooke-- I'd like to go back to you, Brooke. You wrote a story that was integrated into the book, When I Started Teaching, I Wish I Had Known. And it's share your love of content. And of course, the content is math.

[00:14:31.75] [LAUGHTER]

[00:14:32.68] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Of course.

[00:14:33.22] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Of course. So could you just give us a summary of that story that you wrote for the book and why you decided that this was an important message for beginning teachers to hear?

[00:14:46.99] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Sure. So I think it's extremely important to show enthusiasm and what you do as a teacher, because if you're excited about something, you're going to get your students excited about it. And as a math teacher-- as Christa just said-- there are so many students that come into school strongly disliking math. They have math anxiety or their parents don't like math and shine a negative light on it unintentionally. But they just hear negative ideas about math. Or maybe they struggled in math and now they say, well, my child is going to struggle in math because I struggled in math.

[00:15:22.36] So whatever the reason is, it just breaks my heart because I love math. So my goal every year is to make my students love math. And it's funny. They come into school in September, and I begin each school year asking who loves math and only about half the class raised their hand. And I tell them that by Thanksgiving they are going to love math. And they're like, no, not going to happen. I don't like math. My students are 10, so they've already had their mind made up.

[00:15:52.03] So it becomes a challenge. And throughout the year, we play a lot of games. We do hands-on math, some online math, watch videos along with the traditional whiteboard practice and worksheets. But during every lesson, I show my love for math and the enthusiasm and excitement about what we are learning. And we have a lot of discussions about growth mindset. And more and more throughout each month, I'm like, OK. Who loves math now that didn't love math before? And more and more students raise their hand.

[00:16:22.51] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's the test. You had a student that you referenced in your story. Who was the student that was hysterical? [LAUGHS]

[00:16:32.62] BROOKE TRAVERSO: I absolutely love her. She's much older now. This was about, I would say, 12 years ago. She comes to my mind at the start of every school year. We started the first day. She was absolutely hysterical. I just don't like math. Math is really hard. I can't do it. I'll never get better at math. So I pulled her in the hallway, we had a little conversation, and we had a long talk. I calmed her down. I told her that it's OK. I love math enough for the both of us, so she doesn't need to love it. She's just going to try her best, and she's going to do great. I calmed her down.

[00:17:08.68] And I'll never forget it. We built a really good relationship, and she was willing to try. She was working hard. And Thanksgiving, she pulled me in the hallway, and she had tears in her eyes. And I'll just never forget the moment. She said, I love math so much now and that's because of you. And she gave me a big hug. And the rest of the year was just such a smooth year for her, and it was just such a pivotal moment that she is who I think of every year when I start my school year with those kiddos who are saying I don't like math. I'll never like math. You will not get me to like math.

[00:17:42.56] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you for sharing that story. And for being so clear that this is a message that all beginning teachers need to hear as they prepare is it's OK to show the kids enthusiasm for math or any content that we're teaching instead of holding back what we love. So what did you think of that story, Christa? How does that relate to you? And I want you to share your book and how your book can fit in with the story that Brooke just shared.

[00:18:17.89] CHRISTA JACKSON: Yes. I love, love that story. Changing the mindset towards a love towards mathematics, that's exactly what we are all wanting to do, to show that love for mathematics and to really exemplify that we all can-- are learners and doers of mathematics and because we do it every day. So therefore, we want to inhabit that love and that appreciation for mathematics, because it is such a beautiful, beautiful, creative subject and to showcase that within everything that we do.

[00:18:58.03] So with that-- and to really broaden the views of who can and what we signify who can and does not do mathematics, which is really stemming into equity and really focusing on and grounding our work within equity. And that's the way when we're looking at one of the books that-- the two books, that is, that was published with Corwin, which I'm so, so, so grateful for.

[00:19:24.56] It is called Simplifying STEM for Equitable Practices to Inspire Meaningful Learning. And that is for-- we have a book that targets specifically the elementary level as well as the secondary level, grade six to 12 and is grounded in equity. So we're really focusing on giving all of our learners that idea and that understanding that they are learners and doers of mathematics. In this case, of integrated STEM. So we're really centered it in on those equitable practices.

[00:20:00.68] And the book itself and the foundation of the book is grounded in the equity-oriented STEM literacy framework, which really focuses on that sense of belonging, the empowerment, utility, and the applicability. And that is one thing in mathematics we hear a lot as mathematics teachers. When am I ever, ever going to use this? And that's one thing with the integrated STEM practices. It showcases that, yes, we have this utility and applicability, and we're going to use it all the time. So it's really broadening that and centering it on that.

[00:20:42.98] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Well, thank you for that overview. Brooke, what did you hear in there that you can use? [LAUGHS]

[00:20:50.23] BROOKE TRAVERSO: I heard a lot of the theme of what I'm thinking. What Christa does with adults is what I do with my students, and just trying to show your enthusiasm and change people's mindset about math.

[00:21:04.57] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Thank you so much, both of you for reminding a non-math person [LAUGHS] how important math is. And that love of content that I think teachers need to pay more attention to. We do spend a lot of time beginning teachers in the pedagogy, and how to teach, and the classroom management. And sometimes that gets lost in the shuffle that the content we're teaching also has a beauty and an importance.

[00:21:40.09] So Christa, one follow up. People are busy. And you did mention teachers are going to say, oh, god, I got one more thing I have to now integrate. And I have to love math, and I don't really like math.

[00:21:53.40] [INTERPOSING VOICES]

[00:21:55.12] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So what's a little bit of advice for teachers around your books-- I know there are two different levels-- that you would say?

[00:22:04.12] CHRISTA JACKSON: So really Simplifying STEM is exactly that. It is simplifying STEM so we as teachers are working smarter and not necessarily harder. So like in mathematics, we have the eight mathematical practices that we engage our scholars in the mathematics classroom, but then also in science, we have the eight science and engineering practices that scholars are engaged in. And then in technology and engineering, there are eight practices that we engage our students in.

[00:22:40.90] So if we look at that, we have 24 different practices that we as teachers need to engage our students in. So myself and my colleagues, we have taken all 24 of those practices and synthesized those into just four integrated STEM practices.

[00:22:59.50] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Now you're talking. Now you're talking.

[00:23:01.39] CHRISTA JACKSON: So we are truly, truly--

[00:23:03.09] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I can do four.

[00:23:03.79] CHRISTA JACKSON: --truly-- exactly. Truly, truly simplifying STEM. So it incorporates all 24 practices into these four integrated practices, really focusing on using critical and creative thinking as well as collaborating and using appropriate tools, communicating solutions, and recognizing and using structures in real world systems. So all 24 can be condensed to these four so that we as teachers are working smarter and teaching our subjects to our students.

[00:23:39.73] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love-- how's that sound, Brooke?

[00:23:41.63] BROOKE TRAVERSO: That sounds great.

[00:23:42.83] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Sounds good? All right, we're going to be getting Brooke a copy of your book so that she can start practicing.

[00:23:48.35] CHRISTA JACKSON: Wonderful.

[00:23:48.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Because she already loves-- she's got the mindset. We're going to give her the simplified version.

[00:23:54.95] BROOKE TRAVERSO: I would love that. I tell my students all the time to work smarter not harder, so I would love to [INAUDIBLE].

[00:23:59.99] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So you two are sisters, all right? You're connected.

[00:24:03.18] CHRISTA JACKSON: I love it.

[00:24:04.13] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: It's like the same person is being interviewed. I love this. So thank you for being here. I'm just going to close out the podcast with a couple of questions. One, beginning teachers especially are interested in how you take care of yourself, the human side of teachers. We don't live at school. We have to do things-- we're passionate about our work, but we have to do things to take care of ourselves in different moments. So Brooke, what do you do when it's too much leadership, too many courses, you're running here and there, and kids, and what do you do for you?

[00:24:43.51] BROOKE TRAVERSO: I have to say, do not have a lot of time. However, as an individual, I realize how important self-care is and actually just recently working on self-care. And I think I try to make myself wake up and go to the gym in the morning, take some time to myself. Just taking a drive in the car and listening to music really loud helps me just center and just care about myself a little bit more.

[00:25:08.08] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: All right. And it doesn't have to be a long time. We know being in the car away from the kids can just give you that little pause that you need in between going to the next activity. And what about you, Christa? What nurtures you and inspires you so that you can have all this passion for loving math?

[00:25:30.00] CHRISTA JACKSON: I love the outdoors. Anything outdoors I enjoy. I just love just nature itself and taking in the serenity and the calmness of nature, just basking in the sunlight. And then also basking in the sunlight with my husband, who is Michael Jackson. And I always love to say this joke. He is the, the, the Michael Jackson. And so having that experience with him.

[00:25:59.24] And I had him sit down, because Matlock is one of my favorite series. I know it's an old, old show, but I love watching Matlock. So I con him into watching Matlock with me, and that's really what causes me to decompress.

[00:26:12.82] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: I love it. So one of the things that I did actually when I was-- sometimes teachers get sick. We get colds, COVID, there's a lot going around. And last year when I wasn't feeling well, a friend told me about something called a salt room. Have either of you ever heard of a salt room? It's a room where salt is infused into the air, and it's for breathing. Like people with asthma, which I didn't have, but I had had COVID.

[00:26:47.64] And I was curious. I was like, oh. I think I need to nurture my body as well as my mind. And I know that walking in the forest does that, and nature, and music, but I looked it up. It's called heliotherapy. I didn't even realize it had a name. And heliotherapy is infusing and nourishing our bodies, and, of course, our minds and our spirits at the same time. So for our listeners and for all of you, check out heliotherapy. There are salt caves and salt rooms all over the country.

[00:27:26.07] CHRISTA JACKSON: Interesting.

[00:27:26.45] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So check that out, because it's nature at its finest, Christa. And the music--

[00:27:32.90] CHRISTA JACKSON: I love that.

[00:27:33.99] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: --is meditative music, Brooke. So you may want to find yourself in a salt experience of nature.

[00:27:41.52] BROOKE TRAVERSO: That sounds perfect actually.

[00:27:43.80] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Sounds good, right? Check it out. There's one on the Cape, Brooke.

[00:27:47.41] BROOKE TRAVERSO: OK.

[00:27:48.06] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: So I'm going to turn this over to Tori for some highlights for our listeners, her big takeaways from the conversation. We always have big magic here. All right, Tori, what did you hear?

[00:28:01.71] TORI BACHMAN: Yeah. All I can say is, actually, I love math now.

[00:28:06.77] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: Oh.

[00:28:07.58] TORI BACHMAN: Look what you did.

[00:28:08.82] [LAUGHTER]

[00:28:09.89] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Yay.

[00:28:10.55] TORI BACHMAN: I actually really just enjoyed so much hearing your enthusiasm for mathematics and for teaching. I sat here just thinking, wow, I wonder how different my life would have been if either of you had been my math teacher at some point in my K to 12 education. I just wonder how things would have turned out maybe differently.

[00:28:32.67] And also, I really-- there were a couple of things that each of you said that really touched my heart. Brooke, your story about the student who became a math lover because of your classroom is just so touching, and I think probably at the core of why teachers do what you do. Just to have that moment with a student is really so meaningful and powerful. And I bet you there are hundreds of other students who would say the same to you.

[00:29:00.12] And you as well, Christa. Just your enthusiasm just shines and makes it sound so fun and exciting. And yeah, you're just a treasure to the kids that you touch and even the teachers that you're working with now. Something also stood out to me from both of your stories, that you both pushed your own boundaries in your career. Brooke, you talked about kind of not really thinking of yourself as a leader, but then taking the courses with Carol and really seeing your career differently.

[00:29:34.72] And Christa, you as well, thinking about what's the next step. And just having that kind of aha moment when your colleague said that he was going to go on to get his doctorate, and you said, yeah, I could do that too. I just love that recognition of what could be, and taking a leap in that kind of way. It's really inspiring and brave.

[00:29:57.76] And I really also-- I'm going to just kind of keep repeating what Christa said. We're all learners and doers of math every day. That's something I've learned from my colleagues at Corwin, who edit the math books at Corwin that I should never call myself not a math person, because I am a math person. I do a lot of math all the time. And even in nature, Christa, I was walking the other day and sort of noticing the mathiness of nature, the patterns, and the ways that it shows up all around us. So I love math, and I thank you for reminding me of that, and reminding our listeners of that too.

[00:30:40.69] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Thank you so much.

[00:30:41.67] CHRISTA JACKSON: Thank you.

[00:30:42.76] CAROL PELLETIER RADFORD: That's great. I'm going to end this episode with a quote from one of my mentors in my doctoral program. He's passed since, but his name is Roland S. Barth and his books were Improving Schools From Within and Learning By Heart. And he always supported teacher leadership. And when I was in my program, he inspired me, so these are some words that he shared with me. And I share them with this audience tonight.

[00:31:15.60] I learned that each of us must have a vision. It can act as a guiding beacon only as long as we hold it in front of us. And I thank you both for holding the vision of loving math in front of us in this episode, because it's really an important message and you did it beautifully. So thanks to our listeners for listening in to Teacher to Teacher. Always good wisdom. Bye for now until we meet again. Thank you.

[00:31:55.21] CHRISTA JACKSON: Thank you.

[00:31:55.89] BROOKE TRAVERSO: Thank you.

[00:31:59.04] MALE ANNOUNCER: Thanks everyone, for joining today's Teacher to Teacher conversation. We hope this time together energized you, inspired you, and reminded you why you chose to become a teacher. You can purchase any of Carol's books and any books mentioned in the podcast online at www.corwin.com. Please leave a review and share this podcast with your colleagues. Thank you for listening to the Corwin Teacher to Teacher Podcast, a place to share teacher wisdom and engage in authentic conversations with experienced educators.