How to Deepen Collaboration with Your Teams

Series 6 Leaders Coaching Leaders

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[00:00:00.68] (VOICEOVER): Welcome to Corwin's Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast with host, Peter DeWitt. This podcast is from Education Leaders for Education Leaders. Every week, Peter and our guests get together to share ideas, put research into practice, and ensure every student is learning not by chance but by design.

[00:00:19.44] PETER DEWITT: Hey, Tanya, how are you?

[00:00:21.06] TANYA GHANS: I'm really, really good, Peter. How are you? Oh, he's laughing and giggling before we even start talking.

[00:00:29.28] PETER DEWITT: It's just so funny because life happens around us when we're trying to record a podcast. But we still make it through.

[00:00:37.45] TANYA GHANS: We make it through somehow. We make it through. So tell us about today's guest.

[00:00:42.54] PETER DEWITT: Today's guest is Mike Nelson. And Mike is a former teacher, school principal, assistant superintendent, and superintendent in Washington state. He was, actually, 2019 Washington state Superintendent of the Year. And he's the assistant executive director at the Washington Association of School Administrators. And I'd better get major props for being able to say all of that without messing up. That is a long title.

[00:01:10.62] TANYA GHANS: That's a long title. And you said it well.

[00:01:14.41] PETER DEWITT: And so there are a few reasons that I think people are going to find Mike really interesting to talk to. One, he's genuinely, one of the nicest guys I've ever met in my life. So there's that piece.

[00:01:27.49] But he has so much expertise from both being a principal, and a superintendent, and a teacher as well. But the way that he could bring a community together, I think, he's very gifted where that's concerned and listening to people.

[00:01:47.31] He and I started working together about 2 and 1/2 years ago because he asked me to be the lead advisor for the State of Washington for the Instructional Leadership Network, which we've done with Jenny Donahue, and Chris Beals, and Tom Murphy who's a retired superintendent.

[00:02:01.74] And the five of us just learned a lot from each other over the past two years. And Mike and I have written a book, as you know, on school leadership and about intentional leadership. But he is also-- he's written some guest blogs for me for Education Week that have done extremely well, both about how you get a school board to learn or how you design professional learning.

[00:02:29.36] And then he and I started a newsletter because I have a business called the Instructional Leadership Collective. And Mike's a part of it. And we started a newsletter called Unreasonably Good news stories and Unreasonably Good Leadership.

[00:02:46.94] And it's really-- I have to admit, I'm a little jealous because a couple of years ago, I tried doing a newsletter. And I didn't get a lot of support from people just saying, well, Peter, that's great. Then we started one. And all of a sudden, I'm getting all these texts from friends and emails from people because what you will hear that we're doing is not only are we sharing a story around a topic like women in leadership, but we're asking guests to come in, and speak, and be a part of it.

[00:03:16.32] And then we actually put a Padlet link in because we want readers to be able to share their stories too. And that is at the heart of who Mike is. And that's is why I also want to interview him for Leaders Coaching Leaders.

[00:03:30.99] TANYA GHANS: He is easily one of the nicest people. And you feel that from the first two or three conversations so absolutely. And you can see how that would help his ability to really bring people together.

[00:03:46.71] So much of what-- I know a bit about the book. And I know so much of the passion that you both have is to really make things meaningful, and have knowledge, and information transferred to people, or educators because that transfers to students-- and how that is really hard to do.

[00:04:04.89] And when you-- so much of it is in the details. So you can-- everybody can say maybe newsletter. But how are you going about creating a newsletter? What's going into your newsletter? What's the intention behind it? Listening to you, and Mike, but listening to-- I'll speak to Mike as our guest today.

[00:04:22.88] The level of intention care that he has with the work that he does, I think, it illustrated for me in a new way what it means when people really walk with that kind of spirit all the time. There are all kinds of leaders. And you have your really charismatic, and decisive, and those kinds of people.

[00:04:42.50] He's got such a quiet, almost, power. And I don't even know if power is the right word, but what a force he is. And part of that force is just, again, the level of respect that I think he brings to the profession and the people that he works with. There is no lip service at all when it comes to Mike Nelson.

[00:05:04.97] PETER DEWITT: No. He's definitely very-- he's a very humble guy. But I will say there's a downside to it. Because after we got the edits from you--

[00:05:15.70] TANYA GHANS: I know.

[00:05:16.99] PETER DEWITT: --I sent back one sentence to you saying thanks, Tanya. And then I said something. He gets back with this, this is my first time writing-- this paragraph of just love for Tanya. And Tanya is like, I'm blushing. And I'm sitting there going, great, now I just look bad. So there is that downside, like--

[00:05:36.31] TANYA GHANS: Nope. Because there are all kinds of ways for people to demonstrate this. He's got his way. And you've got yours. I always feel nothing but love from you, Peter.

[00:05:46.90] PETER DEWITT: So I hope people enjoy the conversation because I think he truly is a remarkable guy. And you may not know his name yet, but you certainly will over the next year for sure.

[00:06:01.49] TANYA GHANS: Oh. There's no question about it. So this is going to be really uplifting, listeners so enjoy it. And, Peter, I'll see you on the other side.

[00:06:09.86] PETER DEWITT: OK.

[00:06:10.49] [AUDIO LOGO]

[00:06:14.05] (VOICEOVER): Come explore Corwin's free New Teacher Toolkit and resources. We've curated these resources based on extensive research from teachers, coaches, and principals alike. Whether you are brand new or a veteran teacher, find ready-to-go teaching tools at Corwin.com today.

[00:06:31.51] PETER DEWITT: Mike Nelson, welcome to the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast.

[00:06:34.96] MIKE NELSON: All right. Thank you, Peter.

[00:06:36.52] PETER DEWITT: It's good to see you.

[00:06:38.48] MIKE NELSON: It's great to see you as well. It's--

[00:06:40.48] PETER DEWITT: How are things in Washington state?

[00:06:44.97] MIKE NELSON: It's going well in Washington state. The kids are in school. And school buses are rolling past me on my road. And I love it.

[00:06:54.00] PETER DEWITT: Oh, that's awesome. So for people that might not know Mike Nelson's work, could you talk a little bit about-- give us a little bit of your background.

[00:07:04.39] MIKE NELSON: Absolutely. Well, I am born and raised in a small town in the southeast corner of Puget Sound area of King County, so metropolitan King County, but a small town outside of Seattle. And I took the-- I professionally took the traditional route through teacher to principal, to assistant superintendent, and then 13 and 1/2 years in the role of superintendency. And the reason I talked about my small town, Peter is I became superintendent in the town that raised me.

[00:07:37.16] PETER DEWITT: So with that, I have to admit, I don't live far away from where I grew up. And I mean, I live an hour away. But was it hard to actually develop as a leader through your own-- through the town that you grew up where everybody knows you?

[00:07:58.72] MIKE NELSON: I embraced it. I thought it was a huge, huge gift. And I came as assistant superintendent. And then when the superintendency opened, I applied and received the position so 21 years in this role. I became chamber president, Rotary president, and embraced the community, and raised our kids.

[00:08:21.61] My wife and I raised our kids. They graduated from the school district in which I was superintendent. And I think the one story that I would have to say in terms of one of the reasons why I like it is as Rotary president and a member of the Rotarians, we get to serve meals to our senior citizens several times a year at the senior center.

[00:08:41.08] And many of them called me little Mikey. So whenever I would serve them their turkey dinner for Thanksgiving, they would say thanks. And they would-- I remember you when you were only five years old. And your dad used to bring you down to this sporting event. And so I feel very blessed

[00:09:02.51] PETER DEWITT: So I have two questions because I know Hans-- your son, Hans is a principal. And I haven't met Anna yet. But I know I will meet your daughter, Anna. And I wonder if I talk to them, what would they say it was like to have their dad as a superintendent?

[00:09:19.53] MIKE NELSON: They would say there were good things. But they would probably start with the things that they found difficult. They felt like there were eyes on them at all times.

[00:09:31.34] PETER DEWITT: Oh, yeah.

[00:09:31.88] MIKE NELSON: And I think there's, obviously, some truth to that, probably, of people watching them and knowing that they were my children. But they also know that if their dad was superintendent in another district, he wouldn't have been able to go to their activities, and sporting events, and home for dinner as much. And so they also recognize that, probably, more as adults than, actually, going through it.

[00:10:02.39] PETER DEWITT: You and I talk a lot about purpose. And I'm going to get to some of the work we've been doing together. But we've been-- we talk quite a bit about purpose. And I wonder if you could explain a little bit about, what was your purpose as a superintendent? What did you try to convey when you were in that role for so long?

[00:10:24.61] Because not a lot of super-- and I might be wrong with research. But research shows that superintendents do not typically stay that long in the role. So what do you think? What was your purpose? And what kept you in that role for that period of time?

[00:10:42.13] MIKE NELSON: You hit on one of the key points that is a strong value of mine as a leader is to develop systems for long-term sustainability as a leader. And that was what, I believe, I attempted to do. But to answer your purpose question, I never thought I would be a superintendent.

[00:11:07.27] So I had-- I was put in the positions where other people saw things in me that I didn't see in myself, and encouraged, and mentored, and was able to do the job of the superintendency. But I never lost my roots as a teacher.

[00:11:25.21] You've heard the story, Peter that my mom at the dinner table would say, there's no more noble of a profession than that of an educator. Every night, that's what was said. And my brothers and I all became educators. And through that, I really thought I would have a 40 or 45-year career as a teacher.

[00:11:43.69] So even though I didn't have that career, and I moved into the principalship, and assistant superintendent, and superintendent, I don't feel I ever lost my roots as a teacher. So staying true to that, and to the learning, and support of students in our community, and feeling that at a very deep level-- that sense of responsibility and moral responsibility that I had in that role, that's what was my purpose.

[00:12:13.60] PETER DEWITT: That's really great. I'm actually in Little Rock, Arkansas this week working with leadership teams from across the state. And we actually had a discussion today about-- I had the same situation. I'm the youngest of five, the first to go to college.

[00:12:26.98] And my mom talked about me being a teacher, like, I was one step closer to God. She just made it-- she just always made it so amazing. And yet I had friends that were in education. And their parents tried to talk them out of it. And that's unfortunate because we need-- that kind of support that we both had from our parents was hugely beneficial but also influential in the decisions we made as we went on.

[00:12:54.61] And one of the things that you haven't said that I want people to know is that you were actually Superintendent of the Year for Washington state. And could you talk just a little bit about being the Superintendent of the Year for Washington state?

[00:13:10.59] MIKE NELSON: Yeah, what an incredible honor. And what I loved about it is it became a community honor. And the community-- as a superintendent, you want your community to love your public schools and to embrace them.

[00:13:28.25] And so the moment of becoming Superintendent of the Year, the community reinforced that embracing, whether it was being the grand marshal of the 4th of July parade, or being spokesperson at different events, and sharing what you believe your-- you have the opportunity to speak a lot as Superintendent of the Year across the state, and even on a national level, and really sharing that value.

[00:13:57.32] And going back to your previous question, my platform so to speak, it certainly wasn't a Miss America pageant. But it was Superintendent of the Year. And my platform was trying to increase longevity tenure of superintendents.

[00:14:14.45] PETER DEWITT: So let's actually talk about that for a little while because one of the-- I mean, I definitely want to talk about the fact that you and I have written a book together and some of those things. But I'd like to talk a little bit about how we met.

[00:14:29.40] And we met through WASA. And you were at the Washington Association of School Administrators. Can you talk a little bit about your role with WASA, when you started. And I think it's important to talk about the professional learning that you've inspired through WASA as well. But first and foremost, talk a little bit about WASA and your role there.

[00:14:56.86] MIKE NELSON: Well, thanks for the opportunity. Going back to my roots, I, again, thought I would be a teacher for 40 years. I really thought I would retire from education, leaving you in class as superintendent. That's what I thought my career-- well, there would be a period in my professional career.

[00:15:14.53] And the opportunity to lead professional learning at WASA came open. And it wasn't-- people were surprised that I would apply because it wasn't the executive director position. It was an assistant executive director position.

[00:15:30.15] I know titles don't matter to you, Peter. Titles don't matter to me either . But the job and how it was framed was so enticing. So I have the great opportunity to design, and create professional learning for 295 superintendents, and their district level administrators.

[00:15:49.59] You can look at it as a daunting task. But it was like I became a teacher again. I became a teacher to our 1,300 members. And I'm designing lessons and figuring out, what's the best way to help adults learn to take the next step in their districts, and help them themselves, but then help them build skills to support other leaders within their system.

[00:16:13.62] The unique thing that I think you're maybe trying to get at a little bit is I became super-- or I became a WASA employee. I applied for the job before the pandemic or when it was thought to be the flu. I received the job when it was-- we were just going to take a two-year or two-week pause so that would slow the curve. And then it didn't happen.

[00:16:37.76] And so professional learning is the backbone for revenue of a professional organization. And we went into this pandemic. You know that there was no kids in schools. And you couldn't run conferences as you thought.

[00:16:53.50] And so we had to really think differently and, of course, move into virtual types of opportunities. But you needed to make them so enticing that people would pay to attend them. And so that's where I had the opportunity to meet you.

[00:17:11.51] So instead of this annual conference where everybody came to the east side of our state, usually 1,000 to 1,100 administrators-- our biggest moneymaker. We did it-- we called it June-tastic. And we did it all month during the month of June. You were one of our key speakers and did a beautiful job with our members.

[00:17:32.01] PETER DEWITT: Well, thank you. And I appreciate that. The June-tastic was, definitely, how we met. But one of the things that I want you to be able to talk about now is the professional learning side. Because so many people have negative views of professional learning.

[00:17:46.65] And I'm actually-- for people that are listening, I'm actually going through a timeline of how I've known Mike, and where you started, and started with. With WASA, you came to me with this huge idea of the Instructional Leadership Network that we ran for a couple of years.

[00:18:05.53] And part of the reason why I want you to talk about this a little bit is that I think there are people that are listening that are burned out from professional learning. They go. And it's very surface level. They don't get a lot of deep understanding when they're walking away.

[00:18:20.18] And one of the things that you really had this main idea of being able to do was provide this hybrid approach to professional learning over two years with directors of teaching and learning from across the state. And what I loved about it is that you really wanted to focus on deep learning experiences.

[00:18:39.91] And early on, you said that you haven't lost being a teacher. I know that because I've lived it by working with you over the past couple of years. So I'd like you to talk to us about this idea of the Instructional Leadership Network, and why that was so important, and what you thought-- what was your vision behind that?

[00:19:00.70] And how can other leaders, whether they're at the building, or district level, or at the state level-- could foster that same experience that you actually fostered through WASA? That was a big question. So I'm sorry if I threw a lot at you. It's just that I wanted to get it all out before I turn it over to you.

[00:19:21.65] MIKE NELSON: That's a great question. I have to tell-- I'll just start by saying, this is your number 39 in my career. And I'm just as motivated to do this work as in year one. But I have to tell you that the Instructional Leadership Network would rank definitely in the top five if not number one.

[00:19:41.80] I'd have to really do some discernment. I've had some huge blessings in my career and opportunities. But it's close-- it has to be close to number one. And the reason for that is the project itself works with the people who are designing learning in their districts.

[00:20:00.94] And crazy as it may sound, as a professional organization, we-- and as a state agency, which is not tied to WASA, there was never an opportunity in those 39 years for everybody at a state level who are in charge of, or who are coach of teaching, and learning together. We never had that.

[00:20:24.34] And as a result of the pandemic, one of the blessings is King's funding. And we had the opportunity-- I had the opportunity to have a conversation and said, if you have money at the state agency, here's the project that I would like to do. And it was one of the most rapid grant acceptance that I've ever experienced. And they said yes.

[00:20:45.13] And I asked my colleague at Enumclaw to join me, my deputy superintendent, Chris Beals as you know, Peter. And together in very short time, we designed what is called the Instructional Leadership Network. That's the base of that.

[00:21:01.12] The answer to your question and what we try to do with that is everything that we did was with purpose that the people within the Instructional Leadership Network could do back in their districts from welcoming at the door, saying, hello, we're glad you're here to coming into an environment that was a learning environment.

[00:21:28.84] The environment was set. It wasn't trivial swag bag types of things. But it were items that dealt with the content maybe on the table. Each part of the learning led to the next part within the day.

[00:21:50.89] There was more talking by the participants than the facilitators. And you were one of the facilitators. So yeah, content needs to happen just like any teacher. But in order to have transfer happen, they need to engage in that conversation. So that whole design was like this master in teaching good teaching practices for adults. And the uncanny thing is what's good for kids is good for adults too.

[00:22:20.07] PETER DEWITT: Why do you think that-- so you actually have written a few guest blogs for me for Education Week. And one, in particular, focused on professional learning, and an experience you had with sending a letter out ahead of time, giving your success criteria, focusing on content at the-- when you're facilitating, and then some things that you did after.

[00:22:43.79] And what surprised me is that on Facebook, when it got posted, there were a load of negative comments. And the thing is the blog did extremely well. I mean, my editor texted me every day, which does not often happen to say, wow, that blog is doing really well.

[00:23:02.27] But you had negative comments. And when I went to read the negative comments, it was really interesting because none of them had to do with you or your blog. It had to do with how much people hated professional learning. It was like some of them were not even reading the blog. They were just posting their anger for professional learning.

[00:23:21.16] That's why I see what you are doing with WASA as a positive. Why do you think people have such a negative view of professional learning, which has inspired you to change how we go about it when we're facilitating it?

[00:23:43.73] MIKE NELSON: It's uncanny. And I know you've experienced it too, Peter. You go in and a keynote speaker will tell you how to do things in your classroom or with your-- even leadership teams. But they don't model that.

[00:24:01.10] They don't model it, Peter. And it's like, how can you profess doing this when you don't model it yourself? And what we try to do with the Instructional Leadership Network is everything we did was with intention. And we tried to model what good practice is, all the way down to a teacher with their students. Those were the types of strategies in which we used.

[00:24:24.50] And you were there on that first day. And there was a lot of emotion because it was the first con-- one of the first conferences. And for the most of the attendees, it was their first conference coming back in person. It caused emotion. People were in tears.

[00:24:40.20] But I don't think it was just the pandemic that caused them to get to that high level of tears. It was everything that they experienced. Peter, they had a learning experience that they've never had as an adult educator. And that saddens me.

[00:24:59.34] And that's the type of work that we are attempting to do. We're not perfect by any means. But that high level, that standard, that quality is what we think of whenever we bring adults together. I once heard, if you were to calculate the salaries of the 150 people in that room times six hours or seven hours of a day-- the amount that professional learning cost. And you think, did we do that? Did we accomplish the hundreds of thousands?

[00:25:36.14] I mean, I'm assuming that-- I haven't really done it. But it's like, when you think of that at so much a day, that is an uncanny amount of money in that room. And we need to design it so that the most learning can happen for themselves as well as how they could transfer it with their teams.

[00:25:56.47] PETER DEWITT: So I want to move into that a little bit more because, yeah, I mean, the Instructional Leadership Network was for two years. And Jenny Donahue was a part of it. She's a lead advisor. Tom Murphy, retired superintendent, he was our outside evaluator.

[00:26:10.65] The five of us got together. And I always tell people this when I'm on the road. It's an experience where, when I'm talking about collective leader efficacy, and I say it's a shared understanding, and we're engaging in joint work, that was exactly what we were trying to do.

[00:26:24.45] And I always tell people that as a lead advisor, I would walk in with one idea. But I walked out with a better one because of the effort that we all put into it. And that was powerful. What that had led me to do was, actually, ask you to write a book.

[00:26:40.17] And we're in the process of writing a book. We just handed it in to our editor, Tanya Ghans. And it's going to come out next year. And it's focusing on things like leadership, self-awareness. And a term that you, actually, have coined is human interconnectedness. And that's part of what you write about. And I think it's what's fostered within professional learning.

[00:27:03.37] And one of the things that I'm finding when I'm facilitating, or coaching, or whatever is that social emotional learning really comes up a lot, and not just for kids, but for the adults too. And you're right. I remember that first session where people were emotional.

[00:27:19.68] And the feedback was, really, it was the best professional learning that they had engaged in. We did it over two years. We did constant surveys. And we even have extended it by one year and called it the Instructional Leadership Academy.

[00:27:32.37] One of, I think, the underlying themes of that has been the whole idea of human interconnectedness. So could you talk a little bit about that? Because to some people, they're just going to be like, oh, no. This is the soft stuff. This is the touchy-feely. We're going to be holding hands.

[00:27:48.18] That's not really what it's about. But what is human interconnectedness? And why is it so important for not just the kids but for the adults within a school community? Because it's something you did as a superintendent, and as a principal before then, as a teacher before that. It's something you're doing through WASA. And it's something-- what you're doing when you and I, actually, facilitate workshops. So could you talk a little bit about what it is and the importance of it?

[00:28:14.37] MIKE NELSON: Absolutely. It is something that I truly believe in. So I'll do my very best. I think the best way for me to describe it is, probably, like the listeners that are listening to this conversation and in what you've heard in workshops is it's really important to build relationships.

[00:28:33.87] And you could do that by writing notes. And then all of a sudden, somebody will-- here's a list of all my staff. And I'm going to write them a note, and check, check, check. And it's not authentic, and so-- or genuine. And so that's a key piece to it.

[00:28:47.43] But relationships wasn't a word that really resonated with me as I tried to-- it was my wife and kids that said, dad, you need to tap into what is it that hap-- how are you doing this work? And so coining the term, human interconnectedness.

[00:29:03.51] I think the best way to describe it is with an analogy so bear with me. In Washington state, we're known for-- we have oak trees. And we have fir trees. And those trees stand tall. They stand tall, individually, because they have a strong, single taproot. And then there's some little roots that begin to grow. But their initial growth, particularly, in the first 10 years is just straight down. That's different than the redwood trees.

[00:29:31.23] So if you think of leaders-- I'm going to be a strong leader. I'm going to set my mark. I'm going to set the vision. I'm going to come in as a new superintendent or a new principal. And I'm going to make some change. You're setting that taproot. That's not human interconnectedness, Peter so think in controversy or in parallel. Or another way is think of the redwood tree.

[00:29:56.74] And I could tell you-- let me go back to the fir tree. So in Washington state, we probably have a dozen fir trees on our property. And I'm at my home right now. So that's why my head twirled around. Strong wind-- we've had four topple over in a big windstorm about 10 years ago in our yard, big fir trees.

[00:30:15.63] Taproots don't stay strong in turbulent times. It's just you just have a single taproot, unlike, the redwood tree. The root systems, when they grow, they're the giants of all trees. But their roots intertwine with one another. The key, they're connected to one another.

[00:30:35.93] So as a leader, you're building that interconnectedness with every conversation, every decision that's being made. You're building a stronger network of root system that will stand strong during turbulent times, or when there's maybe a little bit more chaos, or when you need to rely on what Stephen Covic says, you need to go to the bank. You maybe need to make a withdrawal because something's going wrong.

[00:31:09.02] So that's my best way to describe human interconnectedness. And having that plays out, I think, tenfold with your community, meaning other staff members, with your parents, with your students, of course, and then bigger sea community outside of the school system.

[00:31:29.09] PETER DEWITT: Well, one of the things that we are now doing-- because I started the Instructional Leadership collective. And you're a part of that. You and I started a newsletter in September. And I want to talk a little bit about that as we start to wrap things up. Because with the newsletter that we're doing for the Instructional Leadership Network, we're taking this idea of self-awareness and human interconnectedness-- something we've written about.

[00:31:54.99] And part of what we're trying to do is do a newsletter in a different way where you're telling a story, and I'm telling a story. And then we're inviting other voices in. We'll focus on research. We'll focus on a conference people need to know about. But we've also included a link, the Padlet, because we want people to be able to share their story.

[00:32:19.35] And for you, stories have been really important. So when it comes to the newsletter and what we're trying to do, what is your hope when you're bringing this whole idea of community and when we're focusing it on the newsletter?

[00:32:37.31] What are you hoping listeners-- people that are listening to this podcast, the readers of the newsletter that we've created through the Instructional Leadership Collective. What are you hoping they're going to do with the stories that we offer? Or what are they going to do with the stories that you offer to us during this podcast? What are you hoping leaders will do differently after spending some time with you?

[00:33:06.29] MIKE NELSON: That's a great question.

[00:33:08.68] PETER DEWITT: I know you're going to be really mad at me because I didn't send you any of these questions before the fact that we're doing the podcast. But I'm confident you can do this.

[00:33:16.78] MIKE NELSON: Well, here's how I'm going to respond. And you can say, he didn't hit it and you know what, I'm going to redirect you. But as you mentioned, Tanya is our editor. And she asked, what's the essence of the book, which I think is also some of the essence of what we're trying to do in our monthly newsletter.

[00:33:33.10] And that's different than maybe other consultants, or other books, or other newsletters where it's one-sided. Here's the information, read-- you read it and then go away. What we're trying to do is-- and I call that consulting. I have the answers, read the answers, and then go away. We're trying to embark on an interactive way of reading a book or reading a newsletter differently.

[00:34:02.48] So there's pieces. When you look at Laura Lippman and Bruce Wellman's work on coaching, they talk about it in terms of consulting, which I just mentioned. And that's how most people-- most experts do it. I'm going to give a speech. I'm going to write a newsletter. Here's the-- I'm the expert. But they talk about consulting, collaborating, which is the next level, and then coaching.

[00:34:25.23] And so both in the book and in the newsletter, we try to say, here's a case study. Here's a story. What do you think about it? What worked? What would work in your system? What would not work in your system? That's a collaboration-type feel. And we have that both in the book and in the newsletter.

[00:34:45.03] But we also have moments of coaching where it's just simple questions of we don't have the answer. We want you to be reflecting and thinking about your own practice. I think we have those three levels embedded. And I think that's what's unique and what's different. Did I hit the mark at all or--

[00:35:10.01] PETER DEWITT: You did. I promise, you did. And I think one of the things that has been a steady thread through this whole conversation and what I know about you-- and that's why I wanted you to be a guest on the podcast and I wanted to talk to you about is that there's always a steady thread for you about bringing other voices in.

[00:35:29.69] And people will talk about bringing voices in. But they talk at people when they do it. You have really just found so many different ways to actually elevate the voices of the people that are around you, whether it's your time as a teacher, and a principal, and a superintendent, your time at WASA. It's been really important for you.

[00:35:49.79] But it's in us, working on the Instructional Leadership Network, and running workshops together, and the writing that we're doing. You always have this consistent need to make sure that other people know that their voices matter.

[00:36:03.51] And it's funny because even today in Little Rock, I had a teacher look at me. And she said, you don't give me a checklist of what I have to do, and go back, and do. And I said, no, I don't. I'm just going to guide you through. And we're going to do those kind of things because your voice matters, and you understand your context, and that stuff.

[00:36:21.06] And I just really value the fact that you always have this constant need to elevate the voices of the people around you. And I need to be honest with you. You are one of the best people that I've ever worked with. And you have made me in the past 2 and 1/2 years.

[00:36:37.20] I agree, the Instructional Leadership Network work, for me, has been the best I've been able to do because not only was it the content we get to focus on-- and it was all fostered by the voices of the people who were participants-- but it's also the fact that I grew as a facilitator and a writer, for sure, from that work.

[00:36:58.80] So I just want to be public to say that I've never asked somebody to co-publish or to co-author a book with me. And there's a reason why I did that. And you have definitely made me better. And just I'm very grateful for the fact that we get to work together.

[00:37:14.91] And I want other people to know your name and know the work that you do because I think they have a lot to learn from you. Because I also-- and this is where I'll end. The greatest negative feedback that you ever got that you hang on your wall in your office is, since when does WASA focus on learning?

[00:37:35.85] And somebody meant that as a negative comment. And you looked at it, and like, this is the greatest negative comment ever. And I just think you always have that need to bring other voices in. But make no mistake, you also have your eye on-- you are very focused. And you're very purposeful in what you do. It's just you want to elevate the voices around you. And thank you because I'm grateful for the opportunity to be able to work with you.

[00:38:03.32] MIKE NELSON: Well, thank you for this opportunity, the book opportunity, and your words. You know that that means a lot to me. And I'm very grateful for that.

[00:38:16.00] PETER DEWITT: Well, I think that for anybody listening who thinks that I'm going to stick with teaching. And, oh, I became a building leader. And, oh, I became a superintendent. But I think I'm going to retire and be done. Don't listen to Mike Nelson because he moved into WASA.

[00:38:30.19] Now you're in the-- now you're writing books. You're writing a newsletter. You're probably as busy as you have been over your career. So you don't retire very well. But I'm thankful that you don't. And I just want to say, Mike Nelson, thanks for being on the Leaders Coaching Leaders podcast. I appreciate it.

[00:38:49.27] MIKE NELSON: Thank you, Peter.

[00:38:50.52] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:38:53.98] TANYA GHANS: Mike Nelson is just a great guy. It's like, I want to pick up, and just go sit in a room with him, and just feel the nurturing, and the care, and the love. That's it. He made an analogy, I think, to redwoods and ferns.

[00:39:10.48] And I'm a person who barely knows a bush from a flower, from a tree. But I've got the idea of redwoods and ferns. But when he talks about the root-- again, lots of people talk about the root stuff with trees. It could, actually, be a little overdone.

[00:39:23.47] But Mike goes about it in a way where it's like, wow, do I visualize? What is it that makes something stand firm and withstand the winds? And it really is about interconnectedness, which is a big thing that he talks about.

[00:39:40.52] So what a powerful demonstration he is of how to walk this work of building collaboration. You and I have talked about how people use words, like, collaboration-- all of these words like that all the time. But it's really, really, really difficult to embody it and get a sense of how you really make that happen on more than a surface level. And I think today's conversation just gave people a peek at how to do that.

[00:40:07.58] PETER DEWITT: And I'm grateful because I've worked with a lot of great people. And he is, by far, the best and has-- he has made me want to be better at [INTERPOSING VOICES] and being intentional about presenting, and what we're hearing. And we have these very deep conversations.

[00:40:25.13] And one of the things that I wanted to do is interview him as if, OK, maybe somebody doesn't know who Mike is. Or maybe somebody thinks they know who Mike is because of his work with WASA, or Superintendent of the Year, and all of those things.

[00:40:39.86] But we brought-- I brought him through that journey of where he started and then where he is now. And he is the epitome of what great leadership does look like. And I do mean that. Our friendship started, like, three years ago.

[00:40:55.19] But he's somebody that I have learned a great deal from, and not only his level of intention, but also his caring nature for really wanting to hear people, and make changes based on what he's hearing-- makes him a really high quality leader.

[00:41:14.54] And I've actually had the good fortune of talking with people that worked with him when he was a principal or a superintendent. We were together doing research for the book months ago. And this woman, Elaine who I've gotten to know over the past couple of years in Washington state started talking about, she went to a professional development session.

[00:41:38.27] And it was being run by a student teacher. And it was, actually, Mike who was running the professional learning. And she remembered it from when Mike was a student teacher. And that just blew my mind. And she said, when he was-- that he was a new teacher. And he was doing this work. So I think that's-- when you think about leadership legacy, there's just a lot there to learn from.

[00:42:02.00] TANYA GHANS: I can second that. I'm working with an author who also I mentioned his name and the gushing, just absolutely love Mike and is just absolutely-- and this is a leader's leader. So it's people from all parts of the education community. When you see it, you know the real thing. You know what he said. So thank you so much, having him on. And it was great.

[00:42:23.99] PETER DEWITT: Well, thanks for supporting the book. And people will be able to get that next year. And I'm very grateful that it's good when you can surround yourself with great people like you and like him. So I hope--

[00:42:36.11] TANYA GHANS: And we will follow up-- sorry, Peter.

[00:42:38.87] PETER DEWITT: No. That's OK. I just hope readers-- I hope listeners enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed it.

[00:42:46.01] TANYA GHANS: Yeah. We'll follow up, certainly, with a podcast we'll have too that digs deeper into the work because this is important stuff. So until next time, listeners, thank you for coming along this learning journey with us-- like, subscribe, leave comments, do all of that stuff. It helps us.

[00:43:02.31] PETER DEWITT: That's good.

[00:43:03.23] TANYA GHANS: We like getting your feedback.

[00:43:05.03] PETER DEWITT: All right, Tanya, always good to see you.

[00:43:07.19] TANYA GHANS: Bye, Peter. I guess who have a quick call with tomorrow, and then I'll run? Jesse [? Lieb. ?]

[00:43:14.97] PETER DEWITT: Oh, do you, really?

[00:43:16.05] TANYA GHANS: I don't know what it's about. But I wouldn't [INAUDIBLE].

[00:43:18.33] PETER DEWITT: I blew up his last email so--

[00:43:21.66] TANYA GHANS: Maybe he's trying to see if can put the pieces back together. I'll let you know.

[00:43:25.20] PETER DEWITT: Exactly. Just look at him and say, Peter Dewitt? I don't know who that is.

[00:43:29.19] TANYA GHANS: Oh, a phone call. He already knows it by now. Not an in face-to-face, no, no.

[00:43:34.60] PETER DEWITT: With those drones, OK?

[00:43:36.42] TANYA GHANS: Oh, God. Yes, I will. Have a good one. Bye.

[00:43:39.04] [THEME MUSIC]